Could Northern get cascaded 365s?

[jonesy3001]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-unit-refurbishments.128846/


Cascades into the company will still happen, there are rumours about the 365s joining northern but could be false.

 

[Roger B]

Just take of the "by arriva", cascades into the company will still happen, there are rumours about the 365s joining northern but could be false.

Wow, 365s - that's a new one on me. I enjoyed these travelling on them between Cambridge and London quite a few times. They'd be a great addition. Any clues as to which routes they might work - is there any scope for utilising their 3rd rail DC capability as well. Perhaps the slightly longer cars might make them out of gauge for some of the DC routes though.

 

[jonesy3001]

Wow, 365s - that's a new one on me. I enjoyed these travelling on them between Cambridge and London quite a few times. They'd be a great addition. Any clues as to which routes they might work - is there any scope for utilising their 3rd rail DC capability as well. Perhaps the slightly longer cars might make them out of gauge for some of the DC routes though.

Could happen after the 1st March since they're also owned by the government and get rid of the 319s but the rumour mill will go into overdrive.

 

[superkev]

cascades into the company will still happen, there are rumours about the 365s joining northern but could be false.

Hmm more emus. With some of the promised electrification being Graylinged I think it's more dmus that's needed (or more wiring of course).
K

 

[OTRail]

Could happen after the 1st March since they're also owned by the government and get rid of the 319s but the rumour mill will go into overdrive.

Isn’t the purpose of the 331s and the additional WMT 323s to get rid of the 319s?

 

[Roger B]

Hmm more emus. With some of the promised electrification being Graylinged I think it's more dmus that's needed (or more wiring of course).
K

There was a hint on another thread about an announcement being made by Grant Shapps in March re extending MML electrification northwards, as part of a package of further electrification. That would be great news - an ongoing electrification process that can retain skills and supply chains, reducing costs. There are quite a few routes in the area covered by Northern (and TPE) that would really benefit. What should be in the first wave?

 

[jonesy3001]

As I said could be false rumours about the 365s, only happened since the announcement last week.
Should be all 26 323s from West Midlands trains

 

[LOL The Irony]

Isn’t the purpose of the 331s and the additional WMT 323s to get rid of the 319s?

Yes. And since the 323's are going to be a while and crews are already trained on 319's, it's best to just wait until the extra 323's arrive.

 

[OTRail]

Yes. And since the 323's are going to be a while and crews are already trained on 319's, it's best to just wait until the extra 323's arrive.

The introduction of the 331s means less 319s are required to meet daily service demands - hence why most of them are being sent off-lease. I can imagine Northern are keeping a few to cover the 323 refurbishments.

 

[superkev]

There was a hint on another thread about an announcement being made by Grant Shapps in March re extending MML electrification northwards, as part of a package of further electrification. That would be great news - an ongoing electrification process that can retain skills and supply chains, reducing costs. There are quite a few routes in the area covered by Northern (and TPE) that would really benefit. What should be in the first wave?

Prob too late to reactivate the electrification teams and plant as apart from those working on the MML all the big schemes are just about finished.

By the time the DFT announce it they will probably have to start again from scratch.

 

[cosmo]

If the Tyne Valley was an electric line they could have cascaded them down onto the Hexham-Morpeth trains, since Newcastle to Morpeth is on the electrified East Coast Main Line. Maybe a use for them on the Leeds-Doncaster line to supplement 32x units?

 

[HSTEd]

I think most of the best routes to electrify for the purposes of relieving the Northern stock shortage are in the Manchester suburban area.

In terms of units released per km electrified most of the big wins seem to be there.

Marple/Rose Hill Marple and Buxton as examples.

Also it would be best if Northern simply replaced any remaining 319s on the franchise with 365s.
They have better performance after all.

 

[JonathanH]

Marple/Rose Hill Marple and Buxton as examples.

Marple / Rose Hill Marple really isn't that many diagrams - at best running half hourly - that is kind of why they are seen as routes ripe for Metrolink where the frequency could be increased.

Buxton no doubt comes with some complexity due to its length and terrain. Hardly an intensive service.

 

[HSTEd]

Marple / Rose Hill Marple really isn't that many diagrams - at best running half hourly - that is kind of why they are seen as routes ripe for Metrolink where the frequency could be increased.

There aren't many non electrified railways with much mroe than that.
The only major scheme like that left is TPE North electrification and that's completely dead.

~55 track kilometres gets you to New Mills Central and Rose Hill Marple via Hyde North and via Bredbury.

That gets you four trains per hour (I think, hard to tell for sure).

Rose Hill Marple has a cycle time of approaching 80 minutes, and New Mills Central I think comes out similar. So you will be looking at maybe 5 trainsets.

1 trainset, which might have more than one unit in it, replaced for 11 track-km is hard to beat elsewhere.
And track rationalisation could substantially reduce that if that was permitted.

Buxton no doubt comes with some complexity due to its length and terrain. Hardly an intensive service.

Well it could have it's costs reduced by track rationalisation.... but I know that is a dirty word these days.

Also the lines in the Hope Valley are bloody spaghetti......
If only there was some money to sort that out.

 

[Bevan Price]

Trans Pennine electrification should not be allowed to be dead. Someone needs to stamp on the DfT and stop it blocking sensible schemes just because of initial cost. As I have commented elsewhere, they seem incapable of long term strategy. And Calder Valley should follow for electrification, and then the CLC line, Southport, Blackburn & Buxton. They need to plan to eliminate diesel power from all but the quietest routes within the next 15 - 20 years.

But - Class 365s - no. That would lead to more months of chaos whilst crews are involved in training instead of operating passenger services. Yes - they are probably better than 319s, and it is a pity that they were not available instead of the 319s, but that is history; it is too late now for them to have a useful future in the north. Bringing them now would just be a dead end tactic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hmm more emus. With some of the promised electrification being Graylinged I think it's more dmus that's needed (or more wiring of course).
K

Do railways exist in a parallel universe to road vehicles, noting the Government bringing forward the petrol and diesel engine embargo road vehicles et al from 2040 to 2035. Fifteen years life in a rail unit seems a rather low life expectancy figure.

If Grayling ever had to stand before a Judicial Committee of Enquiry to explain his ineptitude as a Minister, The Department of Transport would be by no means be the only ministerial department under his supposed jurisdiction where he would have to explain his many transgressions...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also it would be best if Northern simply replaced any remaining 319s on the franchise with 365s. They have better performance after all.

To be honest, when I saw that a Class 319 was scheduled to run the Manchester Airport to Blackpool service that we were due to travel upon this week as far as Bolton, I was "none too pleased", but I must confess that it was the best journey by far that I have ever had in a Class 319 unit.

Incidentally, the new toilets in the waiting room area on platform 4 at Bolton are excellent.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

There was a hint on another thread about an announcement being made by Grant Shapps in March re extending MML electrification northwards, as part of a package of further electrification. That would be great news - an ongoing electrification process that can retain skills and supply chains, reducing costs. There are quite a few routes in the area covered by Northern (and TPE) that would really benefit. What should be in the first wave?

Which thread/post was that? I’d be interested to hear more about that!

 

[Wtloild]

Travelled on 365s a few times in Scotland last year & was impressed.

 

[NoMorePacers]

If some wiring was actually done in Yorkshire then they'd be decent for that.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which thread/post was that? I’d be interested to hear more about that!

This one I think: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tarting-the-electrification-programme.199986/