Proposal for new Underground Line across London

[Peregrine 4903]

Firstly I'm not sure this is posted in the right place.

Also secondly this is just meant to be a bit of fun and is probably not a realistic proposal.

When I was bored looking through google maps I came up with a proposal for a new Underground route across London. Here are the list of stations that would be on the route:

Great Cambridge Road (Junction with A406)
White Hart Lane (Not sure what I would call this station)
Noel Park
West Green
St Ann's
Manor House,
Lordship Park,
Newington Green,
Canonbury,
Essex Road,
Angel,
Mount Pleasant,
Holborn,
Aldwych,
Temple,
Waterloo,
Lambeth,
Vauxhall,
South Lambeth,
Wandsworth Road,
Cedars Road,
Clapham Junction,

What do you think of the proposal?

One of the good parts about is providing better access to Aldwych and Temple from both the North and South avoiding the need to change at Enbankment or walk from Waterloo or Holborn.

I don't think this line is a realistic proposal, certainly not financially but I do think it would be well used if it were to be somehow built.

 

[JonathanH]

The stations in central London are far too close together - stopping at Holborn, Aldwych, Temple and Waterloo is not necessary.

As you say, unlikely to be considered.

 

[357 LTSRail]

Sounds not too dissimilar to crossrail 2 and some of its earlier suggestions with the Northern City line in there!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The stations in central London are far too close together - stopping at Holborn, Aldwych, Temple and Waterloo is not necessary.

As you say, unlikely to be considered.

I only added aldwych and temple to allow interchange with the circle and district lines, while also the old aldwych station.

 

[JonathanH]

I only added aldwych and temple to allow interchange with the circle and district lines, while also the old aldwych station.

Yes, although what has to be remembered is how you get access to build the stations. The area around Temple includes some historic buildings around which it would be very difficult to build. Around Aldwych there is a major traffic interchange.

If you look at how the Crossrail stations are being built, a big pit has to be dug in the ground - this either requires buildings to be demolished as happened at Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon or on open spaces like happened at Finsbury Circus for Liverpool Street.

A route is reserved for Crossrail 2 - that is probably about it as far as new underground lines go.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Yes, although what has to be remembered is how you get access to build the stations. The area around Temple includes some historic buildings around which it would be very difficult to build. Around Aldwych there is a major traffic interchange.

If you look at how the Crossrail stations are being built, a big pit has to be dug in the ground - this either requires buildings to be demolished as happened at Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon or on open spaces like happened at Finsbury Circus for Liverpool Street.

A route is reserved for Crossrail 2 - that is probably about it as far as new underground lines go.

But at aldwych you have the old station building that could be used. I know it would have to be upgraded but it could still be used.

 

[JonathanH]

But at aldwych you have the old station building that could be used. I know it would have to be upgraded but it could still be used.

You really couldn't use it. It would in no way meet modern standards. There is no possible 'upgrade' that would make it suitable.

Contrast the scale of the stations on the early 20th Century lines with the Victoria Line, then the Jubilee Line and then Crossrail and see how much bigger the stations have to be to meet modern standards.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

You really couldn't use it. It would in no way meet modern standards. There is no possible 'upgrade' that would make it suitable.

Contrast the scale of the stations on the early 20th Century lines with the Victoria Line, then the Jubilee Line and then Crossrail and see how much bigger the stations have to be to meet modern standards.

But as aldwych was a station could you re open it without it applying to modern standards?

Probably not I'm guessing.

 

[JonathanH]

But as aldwych was a station could you re open it without it applying to modern standards?

Probably not I'm guessing.

Even if you could, the whole point of opening a new line is to increase capacity not be restricted by the limited capacity of yesteryear.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Also the practicalities of building the line aside, if it were somehow built how useful would it be and what do you think passenger usage would be like?

 

[MarkyT]

But as aldwych was a station could you re open it without it applying to modern standards?

Probably not I'm guessing.

Once it was closed to passengers, reopening would count as a completely new station, so full modern standards apply. I believe costs of necessary upgrades and renewals were part of the final nail in the coffin for the Aldwych branch.

 

[Ianno87]

Basically a slower version of Crossrail 2, although I think there is a minor gap in Tube/Rail access to the Aldwych/Fleet Street corridor that the Central Line / District Lines don't *quite* meet (but the Fleet Line would have solved)

Once it was closed to passengers, reopening would count as a completely new station, so full modern standards apply. I believe costs of necessary upgrades and renewals were part of the final nail in the coffin for the Aldwych branch.

And it's frankly just easier and cheaper to build an entirely new station than fart about modifying an existing one.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Basically a slower version of Crossrail 2, although I think there is a minor gap in Tube/Rail access to the Aldwych/Fleet Street corridor that the Central Line / District Lines don't *quite* meet (but the Fleet Line would have solved)



And it's frankly just easier and cheaper to build an entirely new station than fart about modifying an existing one.

If the money were to become available how do you think we could improve rail access to the Aldwych/Fleet Street corridor?

 

[PTR 444]

If the money were to become available how do you think we could improve rail access to the Aldwych/Fleet Street corridor?

Why not just reopen the disused section of the Jubilee Line from Green Park to near Aldwych and extend it both ways. You could call it the Fleet Line I suppose.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Why not just reopen the disused section of the Jubilee Line from Green Park to near Aldwych and extend it both ways. You could call it the Fleet Line I suppose.

If that could actually be done, that seems like a great idea. I'm not sure where you would extent it westwards though? Going South West would probably have the most potential I reckon.

 

[PTR 444]

If that could actually be done, that seems like a great idea. I'm not sure where you would extent it westwards though? Going South West would probably have the most potential I reckon.

I would advocate utilising branches of existing tube lines where possible to remove multiple branches on those lines and in turn maximising capacity. I think the best bet for the western end would be to take over either the Heathrow branch of the Piccadilly Line or the Ealing branch of the Central Line. Richmond or Wimbledon could also be a possibility although I’m not sure how District Line passengers would feel about cramming into a smaller sized tube train.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I would advocate utilising branches of existing tube lines where possible to remove multiple branches on those lines and in turn maximising capacity. I think the best bet for the western end would be to take over either the Heathrow branch of the Piccadilly Line or the Ealing branch of the Central Line. Richmond or Wimbledon could also be a possibility although I’m not sure how District Line passengers would feel about cramming into a smaller sized tube train.

I personally think the Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly Line would be a better bet for our prospective line to take over, but otherwise I completely agree, sounds like a great idea.

 

[Snow1964]

Basically a slower version of Crossrail 2, although I think there is a minor gap in Tube/Rail access to the Aldwych/Fleet Street corridor that the Central Line / District Lines don't *quite* meet (but the Fleet Line would have solved)



And it's frankly just easier and cheaper to build an entirely new station than fart about modifying an existing one.

Although any existing tunnels or passageways that are disused might be reused, even if they are just for cables or ventilation or emergency access.

 

[Ianno87]

Why not just reopen the disused section of the Jubilee Line from Green Park to near Aldwych and extend it both ways. You could call it the Fleet Line I suppose.

If that could actually be done, that seems like a great idea. I'm not sure where you would extent it westwards though? Going South West would probably have the most potential I reckon.

Though by the time you've gone to the effort of breaking into the existing tunnels somewhere between Green Park and Charing Cross (via a suitable surface worksite) to only re-use a relatively short section, you pretty much may as well build new the whole way.

Plus if you did, Charing Cross would be something of an oddity as the only non-step free station on the whole line.

 

[randyrippley]

there was a plan to extend the Aldwych branch down to the Circle Line via the Kingsway tram tunnels. I'm guessing the gradients may have been a bit severe though

 

[leytongabriel]

You really couldn't use it. It would in no way meet modern standards. There is no possible 'upgrade' that would make it suitable.

Contrast the scale of the stations on the early 20th Century lines with the Victoria Line, then the Jubilee Line and then Crossrail and see how much bigger the stations have to be to meet modern standards.

I never understood why they built those vast brutalist stations on the the Jubilee line extension. So far to walk for the passengers, dwarfing entrace halls, all-in-all something Stalinist or Fascist style about the architecture. The cookie seems to have been overdone at Dalston Junction and Shoreditch High St (not) too.

 

[JonathanH]

I never understood why they built those vast brutalist stations on the the Jubilee line extension. So far to walk for the passengers, dwarfing entrace halls, all-in-all something Stalinist or Fascist style about the architecture. The cookie seems to have been overdone at Dalston Junction and Shoreditch High St (not) too.

Dalston Junction has some kind of passive provision for Crossrail 2 if there were to be a station on that route at Dalston. Shoreditch High Street is waiting for more development of the area.

The point about building the stations large is to allow for increased numbers of people travelling - interchange at somewhere like Holborn with narrow corridors and sharp corners is terrible - building larger stations is much more convenient.

 

[DJ_K666]

Dalston Junction has some kind of passive provision for Crossrail 2 if there were to be a station on that route at Dalston. Shoreditch High Street is waiting for more development of the area.

The point about building the stations large is to allow for increased numbers of people travelling - interchange at somewhere like Holborn with narrow corridors and sharp corners is terrible - building larger stations is much more convenient.

I think there is passive provision like that at Angel as well. If you go down that massive long escalator there is a landing and then another escalator. Apparently that landing was intended to become the split point for the passage to the new "Crossrail 2" or the Chelsea - Hackney line idea. What line would that be called? The Regency line?

 

[Dave W]

St Ann’s and West Green way too close together, unless you demolished my house. And I was rather hoping your plan would increase my house price, not involve its destruction

I’d probably push Lordship Park up to the other side of Clissold Park and rename accordingly.

If you could start subliminally dropping this into convo with any TfL senior staff you know.....

EDIT: The Arena will probably one day meet its maker to become houses. You could do a Crossrail style exit at both ends so it connected with HGL AND MH.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

St Ann’s and West Green way too close together, unless you demolished my house. And I was rather hoping your plan would increase my house price, not involve its destruction

I’d probably push Lordship Park up to the other side of Clissold Park and rename accordingly.

If you could start subliminally dropping this into convo with any TfL senior staff you know.....

EDIT: The Arena will probably one day meet its maker to become houses. You could do a Crossrail style exit at both ends so it connected with HGL AND MH.

Thankyou for you response.

Which station should I remove out of west green and st Ann's?

I wish I knew someone high up at tfl

That idea involving the arena sounds great as well.

Also I was considering extending the line from great cambridge road up to Enfield town