Should "new Northern" scrap 15x as a sweetener?

[Andyh82]

In my opinion, Northern scrapping any trains seems unwise, with the state they are in, surely they need as many trains as they can get?.

I don’t think anyone is saying they should be scrapped tomorrow without any replacement. More, should they be thinking about getting some replacements and then scrapping them.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, and at the same time, they could make the interiors more suitable for longer distance journeys, like Wessex trains (or whoever they were down there) did.

They could, but my thinking was a mixture of making the seating more comfortable as well as increasing standing room as I envisage that if retained they would be concentrated more on shorter distance local/commuter workings rather than long-distance but with the seating so ammended to 2+2, use as strengthers on some longer-distance workings would perhaps be reasonable in my view.

 

[yorksrob]

They could, but my thinking was a mixture of making the seating more comfortable as well as increasing standing room as I envisage that if retained they would be concentrated more on shorter distance local/commuter workings rather than long-distance but with the seating so ammended to 2+2, use as strengthers on some longer-distance workings would perhaps be reasonable in my view.

Yes, that's pretty much how I vuew the Wessex 150's.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, that's pretty much how I vuew the Wessex 150's.

More for use as strengtheners on longer-distance than being regularly diagrammed to such services?

 

[yorksrob]

More for use as strengtheners on longer-distance than being regularly diagrammed to such services?

I don't know how often they were used on longer services, but they could suit any.

 

[Chester1]

Any rolling stock changes will take a while to implement there talk of scrapping units makes sense. Northern's rolling stock situation in a year or two will be different to now i.e. all the Arriva planned units should be in service.

The obvious change would be replacing 156s with 158s owned by the same ROSCOs. There are 50 x 158s going off lease in the next couple of years from TfW and EMR. A handful will need to be scrapped because of corrosion and other issues but most would be fine with Northern. 153s and 156s could go to scrap first. Most 158s could stay for several years with little extra work. There isn't a good option for mid unit doors for commuter DMUs. Extra 195s are probably not an option politically, 150s would probably need to be replaced with bi modes. I suspect TfN will probably kick the can down the road for another 5 years (assuming a management contract or concession).

 

[bramling]

Again, unless you're going to fund replacement and a capacity increase, which is very unlikely to be forthcoming, I'd say they need to stay.

This is the problem. Too many people seem to want to cut their nose off to spite their face, simply through having the hump about Northern having old units. Before the last Pacer has even left Northern the focus is now turning to Sprinters. If and when passenger numbers start to fall then fine start thinking about getting rid of trains, however whilst passenger numbers continue to grow it’s absurd to be contemplating getting rid of trains simply because they’re perceived to be older than what the south has.

 

[Andyh82]

This is the problem. Too many people seem to want to cut their nose off to spite their face, simply through having the hump about Northern having old units. Before the last Pacer has even left Northern the focus is now turning to Sprinters. If and when passenger numbers start to fall then fine start thinking about getting rid of trains, however whilst passenger numbers continue to grow it’s absurd to be contemplating getting rid of trains simply because they’re perceived to be older than what the south has.

Not the south. Northern are older (or will be older) than the other regional fleets.

Due to the no growth franchise, they are now one generation behind when it comes to fleet replacement.

The prospect of travelling on the 3+2 originally seated airline 150s in 2030 won’t be acceptable to many.

 

[Anonymous10]

Keep the 150s they are decent trains as shown by atw and Tfw and northern are in same situation as tfw they need more stock withdrawing vehicles that can be made prm compliant is not a good idea

 

[Bosch91]

I feel northern will be stuck with end of life stock for atleast the end of the current franchise.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I feel northern will be stuck with end of life stock for atleast the end of the current franchise.

So till the end of next month?

 

[Bosch91]

So till the end of next month?

Thought it was going back out the tender in 2024 when the current franchise should have finished. I highly doubt there will be any more stock orders until then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the whole point was a suggestion that they would be replaced?

The thread title sort-of does, but per my first post I spawned the thread off from the main "new Northern" thread as a means of disagreeing with suggestions that 15x should be removed, and effectively invited people to tell me why they should

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the problem. Too many people seem to want to cut their nose off to spite their face, simply through having the hump about Northern having old units. Before the last Pacer has even left Northern the focus is now turning to Sprinters. If and when passenger numbers start to fall then fine start thinking about getting rid of trains, however whilst passenger numbers continue to grow it’s absurd to be contemplating getting rid of trains simply because they’re perceived to be older than what the south has.

To be fair the same thing is happening on LNR, with people going on about the 319s, which to be fair are pretty rough with some having no working heating, but I'm not sure what they'd rather have that's practical to have other than more short-formed 350s. I think people often don't have realistic views on how these things should work.

 

[bramling]

To be fair the same thing is happening on LNR, with people going on about the 319s, which to be fair are pretty rough with some having no working heating, but I'm not sure what they'd rather have that's practical to have other than more short-formed 350s. I think people often don't have realistic views on how these things should work.

I wonder how many average passengers actually think about the age of their train, many might probably be surprised that trains are built to last 35-40 years, with some going beyond that.

Decent day-to-day maintenance and occasional heavier overhauls should make rolling stock age irrelevant to the passenger.

Pacers could be argued to be a special case due to their unique characteristics - for example lack of bogies, unusual step into the train, et cetera.

 

[bramling]

To be fair the same thing is happening on LNR, with people going on about the 319s, which to be fair are pretty rough with some having no working heating, but I'm not sure what they'd rather have that's practical to have other than more short-formed 350s. I think people often don't have realistic views on how these things should work.

Some people just like to play the victim.

To be fair I suppose one can understand Mr X getting annoyed because his commute timings happen by the luck of the draw to coincide with a 319 diagram whilst Mr Y's timings mean he's fortunate enough to get 350s, when they both pay the same price for their season. Hardly the end of the world though, personally I'd happily take 12/319 over 8/350 if it meant I didn't have to sit next to someone!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Decent day-to-day maintenance and occasional heavier overhauls should make rolling stock age irrelevant to the passenger.

Regular heavy overhauls were a normal part of rolling stock life under BR but these days the ROSCOs all too often do as little as possible, not helped by a DfT unwilling to properly specify and cost for such works. How many of Northern's refurbished units have had window units revamped or replaced to eliminate draughts? Or heating systems brought up to a decent modern standard?

 

[Neptune]

As mentioned a few times I don't think anyone is suggesting they should be withdrawn with no replacement. Everyone knows that would be ridiculous. It is more a case of the inevitable replacement of what will become Northern's oldest stock and what options exist in the short, medium and long term to replace them.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder how many average passengers actually think about the age of their train, many might probably be surprised that trains are built to last 35-40 years, with some going beyond that.

Decent day-to-day maintenance and occasional heavier overhauls should make rolling stock age irrelevant to the passenger.

Pacers could be argued to be a special case due to their unique characteristics - for example lack of bogies, unusual step into the train, et cetera.

Layout, comfort, reliability and crowding are more important.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I don't understand why Northern can't just take the surplus EMUs that'll be freed up from the South like 357s from c2c, 360s from both Greater Anglia and Heathrow Connect, 379s from Greater Anglia, the list goes on ... electrify more lines or have them diesel hauled on lines not feasible for electrification and Bob's your uncle!

 

[bramling]

I don't understand why Northern can't just take the surplus EMUs that'll be freed up from the South like 357s from c2c, 360s from both Greater Anglia and Heathrow Connect, 379s from Greater Anglia, the list goes on ... electrify more lines or have them diesel hauled on lines not feasible for electrification and Bob's your uncle!

The problem is that the lead time for electrification is several years from start to finish. This doesn’t help things now.

Another aspect is that some of the “low lying fruit” electrification have now been done. For sure there’s some more that spring to mind (eg Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington Central), but there’s also plenty of routes which simply aren’t going to justify electrification, like Settle & Carlisle.

Cardiff Valleys would have been a perfect use for the many surplus 321s, but that system is taking a different path.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I don't understand why Northern can't just take the surplus EMUs that'll be freed up from the South like 357s from c2c, 360s from both Greater Anglia and Heathrow Connect, 379s from Greater Anglia, the list goes on ... electrify more lines or have them diesel hauled on lines not feasible for electrification and Bob's your uncle!

Shame some of the electrification projects got cancelled then. Definitely, definitely not salty that wires to Hull were canned.

 

[Anonymous10]

In my opinion, Northern scrapping any trains seems unwise, with the state they are in, surely they need as many trains as they can get?

I should imagine the 150s will be up for scrap within the next five or so years anyway. That or TfW take a few on if, God forbid, they're stuck with the pacers for a bit longer. Scrapping the 156s and especially the 158s seems ludicrous in my view. I know they're getting on a bit, but they're perfectly competent at what they do right now (as far as I can tell anyway).

Scrapping 158s would be terrible in my opinion surely there's still use for them they are very comfortable and decent long haul trains

 

[Anonymous10]

Personally they might want to consider taking the full tfw fleet nearly in 2022-23 when most our new trains arrive 175 and 158 for regional 150s will all be prm and have 2+2 seating ect and all are reasonably comfortable also the 153s having excellent refurbs and could work with the 150 to help make longer trains

I don't know if it's feasible just wondering if it would help

 

[yorksrob]

Personally they might want to consider taking the full tfw fleet nearly in 2022-23 when most our new trains arrive 175 and 158 for regional 150s will all be prm and have 2+2 seating ect and all are reasonably comfortable also the 153s having excellent refurbs and could work with the 150 to help make longer trains

I don't know if it's feasible just wondering if it would help

If they're going free, it would help very much, assuming the situation hasn't been solved some other way by then.

 

[Meerkat]

It would make sense to take the TfW trains, if only to save Northern the problems of maintaining capacity whilst refurbing their own trains.
Refurbed 150s on the basket cases, 195s on the urban, 158/175 on longer services, any spare 170s to Chiltern and XC. All the while steadily electrifying.

 

[squizzler]

Nobody said it yet in three pages which surprises me, since northern was rumoured as the original market. Vivarail's class 230 would be the obvious means of replacing 150s on those stopper routes where the 769's have longer legs than needed. Ordering these units would give customers a new train ambience quickly and at reasonable cost.

 

[hexagon789]

Nobody said it yet in three pages which surprises me, since northern was rumoured as the original market. Vivarail's class 230 would be the obvious means of replacing 150s on those stopper routes where the 769's have longer legs than needed. Ordering these units would give customers a new train ambience quickly and at reasonable cost.

They haven't been all that successful have they? The performance is pretty poor for a start.

And if you obtain them, you might as well just refurbished existing Sprinters instead and have done with it, no?

 

[squizzler]

They haven't been all that successful have they? The performance is pretty poor for a start.

And if you obtain them, you might as well just refurbished existing Sprinters instead and have done with it, no?

I understand the reliability hasn't been great, which is the case with all the 'proper' new fleets it seems. A follow-on order would presumably iterate the design as lessons have been learnt.

Refurbishing existing sprinters would be good and well but still be the same number of coaches as before whereas D-Train might be four or more cars. You would also be stuck with the poor air quality and energy efficiency that is the result of using a 1980s drive chain.

 

[Aictos]

This is the problem. Too many people seem to want to cut their nose off to spite their face, simply through having the hump about Northern having old units. Before the last Pacer has even left Northern the focus is now turning to Sprinters. If and when passenger numbers start to fall then fine start thinking about getting rid of trains, however whilst passenger numbers continue to grow it’s absurd to be contemplating getting rid of trains simply because they’re perceived to be older than what the south has.

Well said, I quite agree!