The case for the Dumfries to Stranraer rail line (and other bits)

[och aye]

Following on from the blockbuster thread from a few years ago:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ng-of-dumfries-stranraer-railway-line.133304/

A study into reopening the line is part of the South West Scotland Transport Study Initial Appraisal: Case for Change ( https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/47013/swsts-inital-appraisal-case-for-change.pdf )

The story being reported on the BBC that schemes that will be looked at are:

• new rail links between Dumfries and Stranraer, Stranraer and Cairnryan, and Lockerbie and Dumfries
• new stations at Cumnock, Thornhill, Eastriggs, Dunragit and Beattock
• increased services operating from Lockerbie station
• increasing the HGV speed limit to 50mph on the trunk road network
• capacity enhancement on the A75, A76 and A77

Certainly a lot of potentially ambitious projects there, how many are actually viable and come to fruition remains to be seen. Realistically, I'd be surprised to see anything more than the last 3 on the list being taken forward, with perhaps one or two station re-openings.

Full story here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-51280045

 

[tbtc]

At least there's one industry still booming in Brexit Britain - the fast growing "feasibility into re-opening railway lines" sector, which I think now employs more people than Fishing and Farming combined

Seriously though, I can't see much changing any time soon - if you want to spend money on heavy rail in the area then a starting point would be something simple/boring like a half hourly Dumfries - Carlisle service, but I appreciate that there are more votes in periodically suggesting a feasibility study into re-opening an old line (because voters fall for the same trick every time)

 

[Killingworth]

Pre 1939, but more often before 1914, my grandfather and his family used the line from Newcastle via Carlisle to Stranraer on through boat trains for Ireland. That market has long gone. The route is far from straight, runs through lovely, but sparsely populated topography and important parts of the old trackbed have been used for road improvemts or built over. A quick look at the 1:25,000 OS map is a feasibility study done and dusted.

Improvements to the roads are likely to give better value for money. It's a long drag from Stranraer to Carlisle! If here today my grandfather, being a practical man, would fly.

 

[Roast Veg]

A rail link to Cairnryan would be very welcome - the Ireland ferry takes quite a number of foot passengers, particularly in the summer.

Only need Belfast to provide a link at the other end though...

 

[InOban]

Nothing to stop national express/ Megabus running through coaches via the ferry, as citylink do from Glasgow.

 

[jfisher21]

There is already the national express 920, takes 16 hours from belfast to london ...

 

[Clayton]

Surely the only reason not to fly to Northern Ireland is to take your car? If that line was still there it would do quite well with tourists and help the area, but surely there’s no chance of rebuilding it.

 

[tasky]

Surely the only reason not to fly to Northern Ireland is to take your car? If that line was still there it would do quite well with tourists and help the area, but surely there’s no chance of rebuilding it.

Carbon emissions, comfort? They are good reasons. (or the latter would be if you didn't have to get a bus from Ayr)

 

[Steddenm]

Hannons Coaches run Belfast to Glasgow (Donegal Square to Buchanan Bus Station) twice a day in each direction for £29 each way and you don't need to change coaches neither- the coach goes on the ferry to Cairnryan. Busy in the summer, I was the only passenger a couple of years back in January!

 

[47271]

Following on from the blockbuster thread from a few years ago:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ng-of-dumfries-stranraer-railway-line.133304/

Ah yes, the amazing Sandy R, last seen on here in September 2016. Maybe it's time to resurrect that dialogue.

Or maybe not...

 

[Ianno87]

Surely the only reason not to fly to Northern Ireland is to take your car? If that line was still there it would do quite well with tourists and help the area, but surely there’s no chance of rebuilding it.

Or accessing an airport is difficult at one or both ends.

 

[route101]

Hannons Coaches run Belfast to Glasgow (Donegal Square to Buchanan Bus Station) twice a day in each direction for £29 each way and you don't need to change coaches neither- the coach goes on the ferry to Cairnryan. Busy in the summer, I was the only passenger a couple of years back in January!

At busy times they use a bigger coach now.

 

[tasky]

The rail and sail to Dublin is really great - tickets from London are about £42 even the day before (I think its only a fiver more on the day, too), you can leave Euston at about 9am and get a direct train to Holyhead. The station is right next to the ships, the ferry is very comfortable and has a lot on it, you get into Dublin about 5pm and there's a shuttle bus to the centre and the two main stations waiting for you.

It's a shame the Belfast route isn't as seamless anymore - the ticket price is in the same league.

Last time I did the Dublin route a guy was saying he actually had a plane ticket to Gatwick to fly back, but the rail fare to get there was so expensive from where he was staying (somewhere a bit north of London) it was around the same price to just buy a rail and sail ticket. He had the time so he did that.

 

[route101]

The rail and sail to Dublin is really great - tickets from London are about £42 even the day before (I think its only a fiver more on the day, too), you can leave Euston at about 9pm and get a direct train to Holyhead. The station is right next to the ships, the ferry is very comfortable and has a lot on it, you get into Dublin about 5pm and there's a shuttle bus to the centre and the two main stations waiting for you.

It's a shame the Belfast route isn't as seamless anymore - the ticket price is in the same league.

Last time I did the Dublin route a guy was saying he actually had a plane ticket to Gatwick to fly back, but the rail fare to get there was so expensive from where he was staying (somewhere a bit north of London) it was around the same price to just buy a rail and sail ticket. He had the time so he did that.

What stops somone using the ticket just to Holyhead?

 

[tasky]

What stops somone using the ticket just to Holyhead?

Nothing physically, to be honest - I don't think they would know if you walked off (although they might see that someone didn't check in for the ferry). But officially there are specific conditions of carriage that say you can't break your journey, so probably not a good idea unless you want to end up on the wrong side of the law.

The Belfast ticket is even more susceptible to that because the route from England requires a change of trains in Glasgow, which for most people is a much more useful destination than Holyhead for anything other than catching a ferry.

Seat 61 has good details as usual https://www.seat61.com/Ireland.htm#recommended option

 

[JonathanH]

There is already the national express 920, takes 16 hours from belfast to london ...

The 920 actually terminates in Kilmarnock. The coach does not go on the ferry.

 

[Penmorfa]

The rail and sail to Dublin is really great - tickets from London are about £42 even the day before (I think its only a fiver more on the day, too), you can leave Euston at about 9pm and get a direct train to Holyhead. The station is right next to the ships, the ferry is very comfortable and has a lot on it, you get into Dublin about 5pm and there's a shuttle bus to the centre and the two main stations waiting for you.

I presume you mean 09.10 in the morning? The station in Holyhead is no longer next to the ships and has'nt been for many years. The ship is a mile away and you board a bus which drives onto the ferry. At the Dublin end you rejoin the bus which takes you off the ferry to the terminal. There you have to board another bus to take you into Dublin at an extra charge. Arrival time in central Dublin is 18.15. So not exactly a seamless journey.

 

[tasky]

I presume you mean 09.10 in the morning? The station in Holyhead is no longer next to the ships and has'nt been for many years. The ship is a mile away and you board a bus which drives onto the ferry. At the Dublin end you rejoin the bus which takes you off the ferry to the terminal. There you have to board another bus to take you into Dublin at an extra charge. Arrival time in central Dublin is 18.15. So not exactly a seamless journey.

Yes 9am, apologies for the typo. I found boarding very quick both times when I did it - the station is certainly next to the ferry terminal (its in the same building) and then when you're on the bus it's like going to the plane on a runway so the distance is fairly immaterial. I think a mile is probably overstating it by some distance.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

It would be good to have the line reopened, it may be useful if the proposed tunnel from Southern Scotland to Northern Ireland ever goes ahead?

 

[childwallblues]

The rail and sail to Dublin is really great - tickets from London are about £42 even the day before (I think its only a fiver more on the day, too), you can leave Euston at about 9am and get a direct train to Holyhead. The station is right next to the ships, the ferry is very comfortable and has a lot on it, you get into Dublin about 5pm and there's a shuttle bus to the centre and the two main stations waiting for you

I thought that you had to get a bus from the station to the ship at Holyhead these days. The train to ship walk ended with the withdrawal of the HSS many years ago.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Now if we used the Swiss model, the line would be reopened to a loading guage suitable to take piggyback lorries, with a loading station positioned in the wasteland that is the old Carlisle Marshalling Yard, open up the loading gauge to suit between Carlisle and Dumfries and ban all lorries travelling on the A75.


Policing the A75 would be by cameras strapped to flying pigs and at night the second moon would illuminate the road......

 

[Clayton]

It would be good to have the line reopened, it may be useful if the proposed tunnel from Southern Scotland to Northern Ireland ever goes ahead?

I think it’s a bridge actually, though neither will happen! It’s miles and not many people live in Northern Ireland!

 

[Steddenm]

I think it’s a bridge actually, though neither will happen! It’s miles and not many people live in Northern Ireland!

Plus NI has a different loading gauge to the rest of the National Rail network. We would have to get dual gauge trains to run the services.

That won't be happening anytime soon.

 

[HSTEd]

Plus NI has a different loading gauge to the rest of the National Rail network. We would have to get dual gauge trains to run the services.

Talgo has made a business of selling handfuls of sets to people, I'm sure they would sell the necessary handful for services to be operated.

Or simply lay a third rail from the landing point of the bridge into Belfast.

I think we should build such a bridge, but that is just me.

 

[tasky]

I thought that you had to get a bus from the station to the ship at Holyhead these days. The train to ship walk ended with the withdrawal of the HSS many years ago.

Yes - the terminal is in the station, you go go to the Irish ferry's desk there, check in, and then everyone gets on a bus as if they're taking you out to a plane on a runway and they take you onto the boat

 

[Meerkat]

Plus NI has a different loading gauge to the rest of the National Rail network. We would have to get dual gauge trains to run the services.

That won't be happening anytime soon.

Just need to regauge the backward Celts
Brunel did it before breakfast etc etc.....

 

[Killingworth]

Just need to regauge the backward Celts
Brunel did it before breakfast etc etc.....

Or ask the Spaniards to show how they do it on their bi-mode bi-gauge units from Madrid to El Ferrol and Corunna. They've been running a few years. That's the least of the problems.

 

[route101]

The 920 actually terminates in Kilmarnock. The coach does not go on the ferry.

Wonder if anyone actually uses the NX to Kilmarnock?

 

[route101]

Nothing physically, to be honest - I don't think they would know if you walked off (although they might see that someone didn't check in for the ferry). But officially there are specific conditions of carriage that say you can't break your journey, so probably not a good idea unless you want to end up on the wrong side of the law.

The Belfast ticket is even more susceptible to that because the route from England requires a change of trains in Glasgow, which for most people is a much more useful destination than Holyhead for anything other than catching a ferry.

Seat 61 has good details as usual https://www.seat61.com/Ireland.htm#recommended option

Wondering ifs it a cheaper way to do the North Wales line!