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Avanti 263 extra services a week

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TiedUpInNotts

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263 extra services a week by 2022 on Avanti apparently. I'm struggling to come to terms with that figure. That's 37.5 extra train services a day assuming they are spread evenly throught the week. Are they going to have new trains by then and are there an extra 37.5 paths a day on the routes they serve, especially considering that pretty much everything spends the bulk of its journey on the rammed out WCML into London. Presumably they must be taking paths off another TOC as otherwise I just can't see how it could be done.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/west-coast-marks-new-partnership-model-for-rail

Passengers to benefit from more seats and 263 extra services every week, station upgrades and 61% reduction to fleet CO2 emissions through brand-new, modern trains
 
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GRALISTAIR

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We need Williams publishing immediately. We need a "guiding mind" or whatever. Someone somewhere has to say "There is no point promising what you can not deliver".

Crazy. I agree OP - just can not see where the paths are coming from.
 

The Planner

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Depends how you look at it. 263 extra services. So divide that by 2 to get 131ish each way. Divide that by 7 and you get 19 per day in each direction. Divide that by the operational day and it won't be much more than 1 extra an hour each way.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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We need Williams publishing immediately. We need a "guiding mind" or whatever. Someone somewhere has to say "There is no point promising what you can not deliver".

Crazy. I agree OP - just can not see where the paths are coming from.

I think a lot of the paths will be on weekends as extra services where there is plenty of capacity.
 

swt_passenger

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These sorts of announcements are always single journeys, so the second hourly Liverpool would easily account for the vast majority. (Assuming ORR allow it.)

Then they’ll probably include the extensions of existing services to destinations off the current network.

One a day each way extensions to Llandudno, Gobowen and Walsall, there’s 42 “new services”...
 
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The Planner

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These sorts of announcements are always single journeys, so the second hourly Liverpool would easily account for the vast majority. (Assuming ORR allow it.)

Then they’ll probably include the extensions of existing services to destinations off the current network.

One a day each way extensions to Llandudno, Gobowen and Walsall, there’s 42 “new services”...
This, you can guarantee that small extensions will be part of the new services. It is just how you spin it.
I went to Liverpool on Virgin not long ago. It wasnt that busy.
One trip isn't really statistical analysis....
 

SlimJim1694

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This, you can guarantee that small extensions will be part of the new services. It is just how you spin it.

One trip isn't really statistical analysis....

I'm not saying it is, but it stands to reason that if they run twice as many trains they will all be half as full unless they can magically drum up a load of other passengers from somewhere. Presumably there must he some very overcrowded Liverpool trains with people standing up long distances. I left London just after 1800 on a Thursday and the train wasn't particularly busy at all which surprised me at rush hour. I came back around lunchtime on a Sunday and it was about the same. Nobody standing up and a number of seats unoccupied. When are the really busy times on this route? They obviously aren't at the times I travelled.
 

221129

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I'm not saying it is, but it stands to reason that if they run twice as many trains they will all be half as full unless they can magically drum up a load of other passengers from somewhere. Presumably there must he some very overcrowded Liverpool trains with people standing up long distances. I left London just after 1800 on a Thursday and the train wasn't particularly busy at all which surprised me at rush hour. I came back around lunchtime on a Sunday and it was about the same. Nobody standing up and a number of seats unoccupied. When are the really busy times on this route? They obviously aren't at the times I travelled.
I refer you to Operation Princess.
 

221129

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I've just had to Google that. So do Avanti want to increase frequency but shorten the trains?
Thankfully it would seem not, however it goes to show that you dont need to actively do more than just increase the frequency of services to generate more demand.
 

TiedUpInNotts

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These sorts of announcements are always single journeys, so the second hourly Liverpool would easily account for the vast majority. (Assuming ORR allow it.)

Then they’ll probably include the extensions of existing services to destinations off the current network.

One a day each way extensions to Llandudno, Gobowen and Walsall, there’s 42 “new services”...

I see what you mean about the extra Liverpools. I'm surprised Euston can take them to be honest.

Is there really demand for direct London intercity trains from Llandudno, Gobowen and Walsall? Why those places? Why not send a few units off to places like Heysham, Wem and Glossop while they are about it?
 

NORMAN471

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I see what you mean about the extra Liverpools. I'm surprised Euston can take them to be honest.

Is there really demand for direct London intercity trains from Llandudno, Gobowen and Walsall? Why those places? Why not send a few units off to places like Heysham, Wem and Glossop while they are about it?
London to Heysham just like the 1970s all over again. Those were the days.
 

philthetube

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I see what you mean about the extra Liverpools. I'm surprised Euston can take them to be honest.

Is there really demand for direct London intercity trains from Llandudno, Gobowen and Walsall? Why those places? Why not send a few units off to places like Heysham, Wem and Glossop while they are about it?

Heysham for the Isle of Man would be great:rolleyes:
 

The Planner

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Is there really demand for direct London intercity trains from Llandudno, Gobowen and Walsall? Why those places? Why not send a few units off to places like Heysham, Wem and Glossop while they are about it?
You are assuming they are all day, they won't be, they will be peak time extensions.
 

swt_passenger

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Is there really demand for direct London intercity trains from Llandudno, Gobowen and Walsall? Why those places? Why not send a few units off to places like Heysham, Wem and Glossop while they are about it?
They’ll probably be what’s possible with trains that what would otherwise be doing nothing. “Marginal time workings”.

Compare with the LNER Sunderland extension. An early morning train has to come off the depot a bit earlier than it did, and a train gets back there later than it once did, but doesn’t actually require any extra units in service, they still do the same Newcastle to Kings Cross legs and return trips as before it started...
 

krus_aragon

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Is there really demand for direct London intercity trains from Llandudno, Gobowen and Walsall? Why those places?

You are assuming they are all day, they won't be, they will be peak time extensions.
The Llandudno service is less than that. The DfT new franchise map page states:
one additional direct journey to and from London Euston per day on Saturdays during the summer months from May 2021

Running the numbers game on the announcements on that page, we also have:
  • 12 new services for the "direct journey to and from Euston" for Gobowen Monday-Saturday
  • 10? new services for the "additional direct service to and from London Euston" for Shrewsbury (days unspecified, assuming M-F)
  • 5 new services for the North Wales Coast's "later last trains to London Euston Monday to Friday"
  • 4 more for NWC's "earlier first trains and later last trains to and from London Euston on Saturdays" (two each way)
  • 2 more for NWC's "earlier first trains from London Euston and later last trains to London Euston on Sundays"
  • 4 new services for Chester's "earlier first trains and later last trains to and from London Euston on Saturdays and Sundays" (assuming the above NWC improvements are all just extensions of exiting Chester services)
  • 12 for Walsall's "direct service to and from London Euston Monday to Saturday"
  • 5? for Walsall's "additional northbound service from London" on unspecified days

(A lot of these will be extensions of existing services using the larger fleet that's replacing the Voyagers, and not needing extra capacity out of Euston.)
With the Llandudno service, I make that 56 extra "services".

The elephant not listed above is the second hourly service to Liverpool (which will need a path out of Euston). They "look to double service frequency to two trains per hour Monday to Saturday". An hourly service each way for twelve hours a day, six days of the week, would only account for 144 of the remaining 207 extra services from that headline figure. So we've got roughly 60 missing services somewhere.

In the article linked in the OP, we find the following sentence:
Today’s award confirms that, from December 2022, passengers will benefit from 263 extra train services every week, with Motherwell set to become a major calling point for most West Coast Partnership services.
Motherwell currently has two West Coast services passing through each way each hour. If the powers that be are counting stopping existing trains at Motherwell as providing a new "service", that would be more than enough to make up the missing sixty services. (In fact, 2tph each way, six days of the week, calling at Motherwell could make 200 new services in little more than an eight-hour day, so perhaps the potential Liverpool services weren't actually included in the headline figure.)
 
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