Ridiculous "rules" that are not documented...

[yorkie]

I have had a couple of people recently tell me about some experiences they have had regarding ticket purchasing and would like to hear views on this.

Claim 1: Enter the portion of the train with the guard in it if you started your journey at an unstaffed station

A passenger was making a journey from an unmanned station, changing trains with a tight connection. He boarded a 4 car service. On departure, a member of staff approached without a ticket machine, and when asked for a ticket said he did not have the ability to sell tickets, and that the passenger was wrong for entering the front 2 carriages of the train (a leading Class 170 unit) and that passengers should identify which portion of the train the guard is in, and enter that portion. His colleague did have a ticket machine, so the ticket was issued.

I won't mention the TOC but if anyone has experiences of this, it would be interesting if a manager at this TOC is issuing such advice or if it's just one staff member saying it.

I would be interested to know how such a rule (which obviously does not exist) would work; how does a passenger know if their train is made up of several units, and whether or not they have gangways, and where the guard is?

Claim 2: Ticket needed for bike reservation

On another issue, a passenger was refused a bike reservation on the basis that the ticket must be present. The passenger challenged this and asked where this was documented. "National Rail Conditions of Carriage" was the answer. So he asked for this to be checked by a manager. 5 minutes later and an apology was made and the passenger was issued with the reservations they require.

Claim 3: We've closed for advance ticket sales and this is documented.... except it isn't

And finally, a passenger was refused a ticket in advance because they arrived at the ticket office 3 and a half minutes after they stopped selling tickets in advance. When the passenger asked where this was documented, he was told "on the door". The notice on the door only gave the time the ticket office closed and made no mention of the time quoted by the ticket clerk. The passenger checked and came back to the member of staff but he was adamant the notice said the time he quoted. So the passenger asked for this to be checked by the staff member, but it was refused. The passenger insisted again that this was not documented on the door. The ticket clerk made a comment along the lines of "I'm not blind". A complaint was made, and the ticket clerk eventually admitted no such notice existed, but still refused to issue the tickets and denied making the inappropriate statement quoted. The clerk also claimed that the time he quoted is listed on the website. This was subsequently checked and has been proven to also, (surprise surprise) not be the case.

Do other customer service industries refuse to sell products to customers in similar situations?

If a restaurant treated people like this ("Don't enter our restaurant at this entrance unless you have pre-booked", "Don't enter the restaurant after 8pm, a sign outside says that" when the sign says 9pm, or "We don't accept bookings in advance if you have not paid in advance" then that restaurant would rapidly go out of business. However the railway companies know that they do not have this risk. Therefore customer service skills are not always consistently good among all staff. Clearly the majority of the time there is no problem and a good service is provided. But the number of problems that people have on the railways does seem disproportionately high and many of the horror stories I hear would simply NOT happen in ANY other customer-facing industry, in my opinion, at least not any that I have experienced.

 

[jon0844]

It's not just the railway. Tonight, having got off my train I waited for my bus that I could see it was waiting 50 yards up the road and the driver was chatting to another bus driver, who starts five minutes after.

My bus goes at 1830. By 1836, he's now 6 minutes late and chatting to the driver of the bus that goes at 1835, which is now late too.

Eventually the 1830 driver gets off the second bus, but does he now start his route? No, he goes behind his bus and starts talking to the driver on the bus behind that goes goodness knows when!

I opted to get on the 1835 that started off 3 minutes late and asked her if his bus had broken down (that would have explained why he wasn't moving). She said, 'He will start when he is due to start'. I said 'But that was 8 minutes ago', to be told 'Look, I drive this bus not his.'.. I wanted to say, 'and you're late too' but bit my lip in case she refused to let me travel. After we pick up passengers and drive off, my driver waves to the other two who look like they're done for the day.

I know the weather was hot today and the drivers probably don't want to drive in the heat, but I feel like complaining makes me look like some whinging old grump!

Still, this is a bus company that has told me in writing that they're happy to let drivers run up to five minutes early, if the driver can see nobody waiting at a bus stop. It also means that many drivers at night will leave even though they can see a train arriving at the station, so everyone misses it - and they can get back to the depot with a nice empty bus.

So, that means you need to try and get to a stop up to 10 minutes early to make sure you don't miss it (take an earlier train?). This also sucks on the occasions where the driver opts to go late because he can't wait to chat to colleagues back in the mess room.

 

[Lampshade]

For claim #1, how is a passenger to instinctively know what portion of the train the Guard is in? I know it's pretty much second nature for most of us (flashing orange light) but a first time traveller may not know.

 

[anonymous0101]

For claim #1, how is a passenger to instinctively know what portion of the train the Guard is in? I know it's pretty much second nature for most of us (flashing orange light) but a first time traveller may not know.

Hopefully the guard will be the last person to board the train and blow their whistle?

As for bus drivers i find they are a law unto themselves and until the cpc had no customer service skills. Compare this with for example a tour coach or private hire coach driver.

 

[A60K]

Number 1: they're talking balls. Number 2: they're talking balls. Number 3: they're talking balls. I had an experience last week having bought a ticket from a machine, only to find out the train was cancelled - next one not for an hour, no good. Took it back two days later to get a refund, and was told I couldn't have one because I had to have returned the ticket the same day. Pointed out the time on the ticket and that the ticket office had already long closed for the evening - told me the only way to get a refund was to contact customer services by phone. Nonsensical balls.

 

[yorkie]

Number 1: I encouraged the person concerned to complain but he didn't want the hassle.
Number 2: That was resolved by asking for a manager
Number 3: No manager available, the person concerned has made a complaint.

These 3 are just examples that have not, to my knowledge, already been posted here before, and are just a small sample of the stories I've heard from people, there are many more, but all the ones that spring to mind have been posted here. Excess fares, routeing issues, break of journey being denied at barriers, are all problems that spring up from time to time.

It's not acceptable.

 

[Bedpan]

Well I must admit that I had no idea that the door being used by the guard had a flashing orange light - I'll have to have a look next time I go on a train with a guard on board.

 

[Jordy]

Doesn't apply to all trains, only Desiros have that feature as far as I know.

 

[Wyvern]

Doesn't the guard normally stand on the platform to check the doors before he gives the right way, so you can see which coach he will be in?

 

[EltonRoad]

I totally agree with the points being made here. I worked in an enquiry office when I was at university and I couldn't believe the attitude towards customers. It's almost as if some staff take delight in seeing customers get stuck - after all, what does it matter to them? Whenever anything slightly out of the ordinary happened, no-one wanted to know and would fob you off to avoid having to research the real answer.

You might have thought that would improve after privatisation, given that the TOCs are now much smaller than the monolithic BR. But it seems not.

It would be nice to see some sense of pride restored on the railways, in the way that you sense it used to be like pre-BR. How to do that though? Maybe it's down to the management? Try and instill some sense of purpose and responsibility in the front line staff?

 

[Oswyntail]

Doesn't the guard normally stand on the platform to check the doors before he gives the right way, so you can see which coach he will be in?

No - sometimes he will only emerge from his coach when he is about to give the right away - should passengers then make a mad dash to his end and risk the (all too frequent) closing of doors in their faces?

...
Do other customer service industries refuse to sell products to customers in similar situations?....

That is the nub of the problem. As can be seen from many responses on this forum from railway workers, they do not consider they are in a "customer service" industry, but in the business of moving trains about. And, sadly, they are not alone in this, as many industries seem to encourage a similar view.

 

[CarterUSM]

No - sometimes he will only emerge from his coach when he is about to give the right away - should passengers then make a mad dash to his end and risk the (all too frequent) closing of doors in their faces?

That is the nub of the problem. As can be seen from many responses on this forum from railway workers, they do not consider they are in a "customer service" industry, but in the business of moving trains about. And, sadly, they are not alone in this, as many industries seem to encourage a similar view.

To be fair, some TOC's are actively encouraging and training staff to higher levels of customer service, i've been put through a couple of SVQ's, and reasonably regular customer service briefing sessions are given to all passenger facing staff. The attitude described by some posters is indeed still prevalent in the industry to a fair degree also though which is unfortunate. Though I sometimes think some passengers should go on a passenger behaviour and manners course, as some people think they have the right to abuse or question your authority when they do not like what you have to say. Obviously a minority all the same, if you're alright by others, they'll generally be alright with you also. B-)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Claim 2: Ticket needed for bike reservation

I seem to remember a while back being told that clerks were supposed to check someone had a ticket before booking the cycle space (the same being said of booking a seat), but I must admit I don't recall having seen it in writing for a while, if at all.

Claim 3: We've closed for advance ticket sales and this is documented.... except it isn't

As I'm sure you're aware Yorkie, Advance fares used to have booking deadlines during the day (IIRC Apex was 1800 one week before travel, Super Advance was 1800 the day before, Virgin Value 1400 the day before travel), I'm not entirely certain when this actually changed now (presumably with 'Simplification') as it is now simply 'before the day of travel'. There is ofcourse no excuse for that clerk's actions in relation to 'the notice'.

If the ticket office now were open 24 hours, someone arriving at 0001 wanting an advance ticket for the 2315 train that day would be refused because they were 1 minute too late. This is not something the clerk can change or waive because of a minute.

 

[Bellwater]

i know what company No.1 is

 

[tony_mac]

This is not something the clerk can change or waive because of a minute.

I think it may be that the stop selling advance tickets at all, rather than just for the following day.
A friend had this recently at Lime St, the travel centre was closed for the evening and the ticket office said they weren't selling tickets for advance travel. So he had to go away and book it online. This wasn't for an advance ticket, it was for an off-peak ticket with a seat reservation, and not even for the following day.

 

[Ivo]

It's not just the railway. Tonight, having got off my train I waited for my bus that I could see it was waiting 50 yards up the road and the driver was chatting to another bus driver, who starts five minutes after.

My bus goes at 1830. By 1836, he's now 6 minutes late and chatting to the driver of the bus that goes at 1835, which is now late too.

Eventually the 1830 driver gets off the second bus, but does he now start his route? No, he goes behind his bus and starts talking to the driver on the bus behind that goes goodness knows when!

I opted to get on the 1835 that started off 3 minutes late and asked her if his bus had broken down (that would have explained why he wasn't moving). She said, 'He will start when he is due to start'. I said 'But that was 8 minutes ago', to be told 'Look, I drive this bus not his.'.. I wanted to say, 'and you're late too' but bit my lip in case she refused to let me travel. After we pick up passengers and drive off, my driver waves to the other two who look like they're done for the day.

I know the weather was hot today and the drivers probably don't want to drive in the heat, but I feel like complaining makes me look like some whinging old grump!

Still, this is a bus company that has told me in writing that they're happy to let drivers run up to five minutes early, if the driver can see nobody waiting at a bus stop. It also means that many drivers at night will leave even though they can see a train arriving at the station, so everyone misses it - and they can get back to the depot with a nice empty bus.

So, that means you need to try and get to a stop up to 10 minutes early to make sure you don't miss it (take an earlier train?). This also sucks on the occasions where the driver opts to go late because he can't wait to chat to colleagues back in the mess room.

I had an experience not to dissimilar to this some time ago.

It was the day before my 16th birthday (now 21). I walked my best friend home from outside her school that day. We were stopped by people we knew on several occasions suggesting we were an item (I wished we were at the time), but otherwise, nothing.

Once I left her in the company of her mother, I went to the bus stop. A few mintus later, the bus home turned up. I showed the driver my worn-out Child Fare card (which obviously expired that night), with a 40-month-old picture of me on it

"This isn't you," the driver said angrily. Considering (a) the photo was taken aged 12, and (b) she had seen it (and my school bus pass) so often that she should have recognised it. I told her it was, pointing out the expiry date, but still she refused. Five minutes later she finally gives in, and sells the last ever child ticket I had.

Now, Transport Commissioner rules state that buses can be one minute late and five minutes early before they are deemed "not on time". This bus was late as it was. Then she stays there for five minutes. Stupid...!

Mind you, this driver won't even issue concession tickets without examining the card first. Typical Arriva!

 

[Greenback]

Claim 1: Enter the portion of the train with the guard in it if you started your journey at an unstaffed station

A passenger was making a journey from an unmanned station, changing trains with a tight connection. He boarded a 4 car service. On departure, a member of staff approached without a ticket machine, and when asked for a ticket said he did not have the ability to sell tickets, and that the passenger was wrong for entering the front 2 carriages of the train (a leading Class 170 unit) and that passengers should identify which portion of the train the guard is in, and enter that portion. His colleague did have a ticket machine, so the ticket was issued.

I won't mention the TOC but if anyone has experiences of this, it would be interesting if a manager at this TOC is issuing such advice or if it's just one staff member saying it.

I would be interested to know how such a rule (which obviously does not exist) would work; how does a passenger know if their train is made up of several units, and whether or not they have gangways, and where the guard is?

Claim 2: Ticket needed for bike reservation

On another issue, a passenger was refused a bike reservation on the basis that the ticket must be present. The passenger challenged this and asked where this was documented. "National Rail Conditions of Carriage" was the answer. So he asked for this to be checked by a manager. 5 minutes later and an apology was made and the passenger was issued with the reservations they require.

Claim 3: We've closed for advance ticket sales and this is documented.... except it isn't

And finally, a passenger was refused a ticket in advance because they arrived at the ticket office 3 and a half minutes after they stopped selling tickets in advance. When the passenger asked where this was documented, he was told "on the door". The notice on the door only gave the time the ticket office closed and made no mention of the time quoted by the ticket clerk. The passenger checked and came back to the member of staff but he was adamant the notice said the time he quoted. So the passenger asked for this to be checked by the staff member, but it was refused. The passenger insisted again that this was not documented on the door. The ticket clerk made a comment along the lines of "I'm not blind". A complaint was made, and the ticket clerk eventually admitted no such notice existed, but still refused to issue the tickets and denied making the inappropriate statement quoted. The clerk also claimed that the time he quoted is listed on the website. This was subsequently checked and has been proven to also, (surprise surprise) not be the case.

Do other customer service industries refuse to sell products to customers in similar situations?

These are great example sof where the railway gets things so wrong. Yet the railway also does get things right. Only this morning I saw two members of staff, one of whom was a train cleaner, voluntarily carry a stack of luggage tot he taxi rank for passengers who needed to get to Fishguard Harbour when their train was canceleld at the last minute.

Doesn't the guard normally stand on the platform to check the doors before he gives the right way, so you can see which coach he will be in?

I don;t see that it matters. Why should a customer be forced to get on a particular part of a train because the rail company can't be bothered to provide staff, or correctly equip those that they do provide?

I know the weather was hot today and the drivers probably don't want to drive in the heat, but I feel like complaining makes me look like some whinging old grump!

In my experience, bus drivers on rural routes or in holidya areas seem to have much better customer service/people skills than those who drive mostly in large towns or cities. I can understand this, as holidaymakers and country folk will tend to be more relaxed than commuters, and the drivers won't be stuck in a boiling bus ina traffic jam for much of the day. Only yesterday I explored the Gower peninsula by bus, and found all of the dirvers on the four buses I used were knowledgeable, friendly, and polite. More importantyl, for a network that relies heavily on connections, the buses wer eon time!!!

I totally agree with the points being made here. I worked in an enquiry office when I was at university and I couldn't believe the attitude towards customers. It's almost as if some staff take delight in seeing customers get stuck - after all, what does it matter to them? Whenever anything slightly out of the ordinary happened, no-one wanted to know and would fob you off to avoid having to research the real answer.

You might have thought that would improve after privatisation, given that the TOCs are now much smaller than the monolithic BR. But it seems not.

It would be nice to see some sense of pride restored on the railways, in the way that you sense it used to be like pre-BR. How to do that though? Maybe it's down to the management? Try and instill some sense of purpose and responsibility in the front line staff?

This accords with what I found when I started with FGW. 'Old school' staff were not as interested in helping passengers as others like myself who had come from a more customer focused environment.

That is the nub of the problem. As can be seen from many responses on this forum from railway workers, they do not consider they are in a "customer service" industry, but in the business of moving trains about. And, sadly, they are not alone in this, as many industries seem to encourage a similar view.

This was definitely the case 11-12 years ago, but I;m not sure it's so prevalent now.

To be fair, some TOC's are actively encouraging and training staff to higher levels of customer service, i've been put through a couple of SVQ's, and reasonably regular customer service briefing sessions are given to all passenger facing staff. The attitude described by some posters is indeed still prevalent in the industry to a fair degree also though which is unfortunate. Though I sometimes think some passengers should go on a passenger behaviour and manners course, as some people think they have the right to abuse or question your authority when they do not like what you have to say. Obviously a minority all the same, if you're alright by others, they'll generally be alright with you also. B-)

Yes, as a customer I now find things much better than they used to be. But there are still some old fashioned attitudes to be found in places, as we can see in Yorkie's examples. The most disappointing thing is when these attitudes are displayed by newer staff. This might indicate that some of the people involved in training new entrants might not be entirely suitable for the role, although they may be technically very good at what they do.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think it may be that the stop selling advance tickets at all, rather than just for the following day.
A friend had this recently at Lime St, the travel centre was closed for the evening and the ticket office said they weren't selling tickets for advance travel. So he had to go away and book it online. This wasn't for an advance ticket, it was for an off-peak ticket with a seat reservation, and not even for the following day.

I was refering to a booking deadline as opposed to matters of impartial retailling (which I think this would fall into). One ticket office at every manned station has to have atleast 51% of open sales points selling tickets completely impartially as I understand it. That means the impartial sales points must sell advance and 'walk-up' tickets aswell as season tickets.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Firstly, in response to Yorkies first 3 points - they are all rubbish. I think I might know which TOC you refer to in Point 1, and if it is who I think it is, we are not told that at all - that is just made up codswollop.

That is the nub of the problem. As can be seen from many responses on this forum from railway workers, they do not consider they are in a "customer service" industry, but in the business of moving trains about. And, sadly, they are not alone in this, as many industries seem to encourage a similar view.

I work in the industry, and do acknowledge that we are in a customer service role, HOWEVER, that does not mean that the customer is always right, and does not mean that we should bend over backwards to give them what they want no matter what. Unfortunately there are a great many people who do not like being told they are wrong (or their ticket is invalid) and believe that the "customer is always right and therefore you have to give me what I want or let me off in the interests of good customer service". In the original points the industry is clearly at fault. I take offence however at the view - held by many - that if I come across someone with an invalid ticket I should just let them off "in the interests of good customer service". I will always be polite with someone, but will enforce the rules and that is that.

 

[John @ home]

One ticket office at every manned station has to have atleast 51% of open sales points selling tickets completely impartially as I understand it. That means the impartial sales points must sell advance and 'walk-up' tickets aswell as season tickets.

The second sentence is helpful. Do you know of any document which specifies this?

 

[Greenback]

Firstly, in response to Yorkies first 3 points - they are all rubbish. I think I might know which TOC you refer to in Point 1, and if it is who I think it is, we are not told that at all - that is just made up codswollop.



I work in the industry, and do acknowledge that we are in a customer service role, HOWEVER, that does not mean that the customer is always right, and does not mean that we should bend over backwards to give them what they want no matter what. Unfortunately there are a great many people who do not like being told they are wrong (or their ticket is invalid) and believe that the "customer is always right and therefore you have to give me what I want or let me off in the interests of good customer service". In the original points the industry is clearly at fault. I take offence however at the view - held by many - that if I come across someone with an invalid ticket I should just let them off "in the interests of good customer service". I will always be polite with someone, but will enforce the rules and that is that.

The rules must be enforced, but in order for the rules to be fair and workable they need to be in the public domain. Also, staff and customers need to be able to understand them! There are instances of rail staff either making up rules, or, more likely, a lack of training/briefings means that they have either misinterpreted a rule, or not realised that something they have heard in the mess room is wrong. There are also, as in every company and industry, poor members of staff as well as very good ones like kwvr!

I do think that in the interests of customer service, TOC's should make it absolutely clear what services, and when, are provided at a ticket office. As ane xample, we did not sell advance fares from the main ticket windows at Reading. These could be bought from the old Travel Shop, which was situated opposite. The Travel Shop closed at 2000, but, as FGW would not train all of the staff to issue advance tickets, being content for the majority to be of a lower grade than Travel Shop staff and just bang out London travelcards all day, anyone asking for an advance ticket or anything else requiring a reservation after 1955 was turned away. i don;t know whether this was advertised anywhere, but it should have been!

 

[sheff1]

I totally agree with the points being made here. I worked in an enquiry office when I was at university and I couldn't believe the attitude towards customers. It's almost as if some staff take delight in seeing customers get stuck - after all, what does it matter to them? Whenever anything slightly out of the ordinary happened, no-one wanted to know and would fob you off to avoid having to research the real answer.

You might have thought that would improve after privatisation, given that the TOCs are now much smaller than the monolithic BR. But it seems not.

It would be nice to see some sense of pride restored on the railways, in the way that you sense it used to be like pre-BR. How to do that though? Maybe it's down to the management? Try and instill some sense of purpose and responsibility in the front line staff?

Looking back at my time working in the Travel Centre at Birmingham New St in the early 1970's I am rather offended by the above.

Most people were very proud to work for 'the railway'. All took personal pride in finding the best options for passengers at times of disruption and certainly had a sense of responsibility and purpose.

 

[yorkie]

Looking back at my time working in the Travel Centre at Birmingham New St in the early 1970's I am rather offended by the above.

EltonRoad wasn't referring to Birmingham in the early 1970s, and is just making an observation.

Most people were very proud to work for 'the railway'.

I don't think anyone is denying that, although it's a different era that is being discussed.

All took personal pride in finding the best options for passengers at times of disruption and certainly had a sense of responsibility and purpose.

All? I can believe you that all did, at Birmingham in the early 1970s, as you describe.

But that does not mean the same was the case at other locations and/or in different years. You can only describe what you have experienced at a different time and place, and that does not mean EltonRoad's experiences are inaccurate.

 

[sheff1]

EltonRoad said (i) things should have improved when privatisation replaced 'monlithic BR' and (ii) a sense of pride needs restoring in the way it was 'pre-BR'. Both to me sounded like a denigration of those of us who worked for BR.

Apologies if I, now, have offended you.

 

[yorkie]

No need to apologise, you've said nothing to offend me

I think that many things were better under BR, however customer service perhaps was not one of them.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The second sentence is helpful. Do you know of any document which specifies this?

There will be document that says it, but I can't say exactly where it is, it is something that the Office of Rail Regulation and ATOC have agreed to.