Holyhead - West Wales service (Cardiff extension)

[Gathursty]

I understand the need for the WAG express but I've often thought of extending it so it serves the whole of Wales in a large reverse C shape with 5 termini:
Holyhead
Carmarthen
Fishguard
Milford Haven
Pembroke

It would work similar to the Caledonian Sleeper operation but during day time with Holyhead trains detaching/combining at Cardiff and Carmarthen.

The Carmarthen train would call at Bridgend, Swansea, Llanelli and Carmarthen.

The other three trains would follow the Swansea District Line and only call at Carmarthen before splitting and heading off to the three West Wales termini.

Think it would work?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

No .....(the branch lines are single track terminii basically) - and the usual suspects will jump in any second now to confirm this

In any case , what is the actual point when the through numbers wishing to do such journeys are low. More services from West Wales via Carmarthen are clearly a good idea and there are various ideas on this matter in consideration. (if not delivery!)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's either an autocorrect in the title, or your device has been possessed by the ghost of Captain Beefheart...

 

[30907]

Bearing in mind the new timetable that's an 0500-ish start from Carmarthen, and 2330 return, for sets that probably need to visit Csnton overnight. Slight difficulty there.
Or are you talking about the Cardiff-Holyhead DMU?

 

[Anonymous10]

It would be nice but what west Wales really needs is better connection amongst itself and to cities such as Cardiff and Bristol

 

[TheWalrus]

I would be interested to know how many passengers travel from Cardiff to North Wales. I would imagine very few beyond say Shrewsbury or Chester, although I may be mistaken.

 

[Esker-pades]

No .....(the branch lines are single track terminii basically) - and the usual suspects will jump in any second now to confirm this

In any case , what is the actual point when the through numbers wishing to do such journeys are low. More services from West Wales via Carmarthen are clearly a good idea and there are various ideas on this matter in consideration. (if not delivery!)

The Pembroke branch is unlikely to to yeild any more paths.
Fishguard: There's a socking great gap in the middle of the day, so one could get a couple of trains through there.
The Milford Haven branch has a passing loop at Haverfordwest, so one could, in theory, get an hourly service (rather than the current ~bi-hourly).

I agree with your second point. Spare paths to/from West Wales should be put to better use.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Let's be honest, Fishguard to Holyhead would be a pig. Even if we took connection times out, you're looking at a journey time of nearly 8 hours. It's likely to be slightly unreliable based on the fact it's got to cover such distance over such rural routes; but you could offer a bus service in about 5 hours via Cardigan, Aberystwyth and Bangor. It could even start/terminate at Pembroke via Milford and Haverfordwest. No point bothering over a train when it would be exceedingly expensive. You're also better using the paths for services to places like Liverpool and Manchester from South Wales instead without the risk of imported delays.

 

[krus_aragon]

It would work similar to the Caledonian Sleeper operation but during day time with Holyhead trains detaching/combining at Cardiff and Carmarthen.

The Carmarthen train would call at Bridgend, Swansea, Llanelli and Carmarthen.

The other three trains would follow the Swansea District Line and only call at Carmarthen before splitting and heading off to the three West Wales termini.

That sounds like you've got four portions to each train there.

Assuming DMU operation (and dismissing 153s) that implies that Cardiff-Holyhead will be at least an 8-car formation, twice the length of any existing service on the Marches. If you're planning loco-hauled operation, in order to reduce the train length below that excessive 8 coach mark you'd end up with locomotives hauling single coaches, whixh is hardly going to make a good economic case.

If you want to thrash this out into a workable idea, I suggest you may want to drop the idea of portion-working all three West Wales branches at once, before developing your plans further.

 

[Anonymous10]

The Pembroke branch is unlikely to to yeild any more paths.
Fishguard: There's a socking great gap in the middle of the day, so one could get a couple of trains through there.
The Milford Haven branch has a passing loop at Haverfordwest, so one could, in theory, get an hourly service (rather than the current ~bi-hourly).

I agree with your second point. Spare paths to/from West Wales should be put to better use.

Pembroke Dock could be with re installing of second platform

 

[Esker-pades]

Pembroke Dock could be with re installing of second platform

You've made this point before, and there was an excellent response from @krus_aragon which questions it:

I'm afraid I fail to see how reinstating a second platform at Pembroke Dock would help provide an hourly service on the branch.

It's a half hour journey between Tenby and Pembroke Dock (30~33m down, and 28~29 minutes in the up direction, per the public timetable). If you want an hourly service from Tenby toward Pembroke Dock, the train heading toward Pembroke at (say) 07:30 will need to be off the single-track by 08:30 to make room for the next train. If we accept that there's not enough time to head down to Pembroke Dock, turn around, and get back to Tenby reliably within the hour, are you thinking of having the unit "step back" an hour by using the second platform at Pembroke Dock?

If so, then that 07:30 train from Tenby would pull into Pembroke Dock around 0800. The single track would be occupied by the next (08:30 ex-Tenby) train from 08:30 until 09:00. If you leave at 09:00 on the mark, you'll be at Tenby just before the 09:30 to Pembroke Dock is due to occupy the single track. But what if one of those trains was running late?

Stepping back one hour at Pembroke Dock allows you to plenty of turnaround time, but it doesn't deal with the issue of recovery time, which is needed to deal with late arrivals of incoming trains. And it means you have a train (and staff) sitting idle in Pembroke Dock for an hour, only to be replaced by another idle train.

I agree with @anthony263 that the three level crossings west of Tenby which have stop boards (Beavers Hill, Manorbier Newton and Llanion) are of greater importance. At each of these, the trains has to decelerate (from a linespeed of 50mph) and come to a full stop, before moving off again. It's almost the equivalent of having three extra stations on the line (except the guard doesn't need to release the doors)!

If we take a guesstimate that roughly a minute and a half is lost at each of these stop boards, then closing or automating these crossings would save five minutes each way, or ten minutes on the round trip. That's enough time for crew to change ends, and a little bit of recovery time too. It might be prudent to hold inbound (down) trains at Whitland or Carmarthen for a few minutes' recovery time too.

(There is also the point that the single track between Tenby and Whitland is timed for half an hour each way as well, so there's not much wiggle-space there. You'd also need some time to exchange tokens at Tenby and Whitland. The replacement of 153s with 170s in a few years' time may help with that, as the timetable could be rewritten for a faster-accelerating unit.)

 

[VT 390]

Rather than have a service from North Wales to South West Wales, which would be slower than other transport options (and I would have thought there would not be that many people making the journey), would it not be better to use any extra capacity on the Pembroke, Milford Haven and Fishguard branches to provide a faster service to Cardiff (avoiding Swansea) which would probably be of more use to more people.

 

[Llanigraham]

Rather than have a service from North Wales to South West Wales, which would be slower than other transport options (and I would have thought there would not be that many people making the journey), would it not be better to use any extra capacity on the Pembroke, Milford Haven and Fishguard branches to provide a faster service to Cardiff (avoiding Swansea) which would probably be of more use to more people.

Having previously lived in Haverfordwest, and having friends down there still, most look to Caramarthen and Swansea as the "go to" place, and not Cardiff, unless it's for the rugby.

 

[Lucan]

Rather than have a service from North Wales to South West Wales ...... would it not be better to ......

But there is the political reason. Wales consists of populated North and South coasts with nothing much (including transport links) in between. North Wales is more linked (physically and economically), to Liverpool than to South Wales, which in turn is more linked to Bristol. The Welsh government (and Welsh nationalists particularly) would like to do something about that.

 

[adamedwards]

Swansea is surely the furthest west this can sensibly go?

 

[muddythefish]

The Milford Haven branch has a passing loop at Haverfordwest, so one could, in theory, get an hourly service (rather than the current ~bi-hourly).

.

Is Johnston no longer double track or passing loop ? Used to be double from Clarbeston Road to Johnston with branches to M Haven and the various oil refineries when I last visited, albeit quite a few years ago

 

[Anonymous10]

You've made this point before, and there was an excellent response from @krus_aragon which questions it:

I stand by it with the changing of the crossings it could be and as a local I'd like to see it and I can have dreams

 

[krus_aragon]

I stand by it with the changing of the crossings it could be and as a local I'd like to see it and I can have dreams

Dreams are important (I dream of seeing Pontypridd station restored to its former glory), but it's good that you see that there are other infrastructure jobs that are needed to make that dream a practical one.

 

[Anonymous10]

Dreams are important (I dream of seeing Pontypridd station restored to its former glory), but it's good that you see that there are other infrastructure jobs that are needed to make that dream a practical one.

Thing is is compared to opening new lines ect it's cheap to change a few crossings and a few direct trains to Cardiff would benefit the area if they were fast as no real commuter services or anything really

 

[6Gman]

I understand the need for the WAG express but I've often thought of extending it so it serves the whole of Wales in a large reverse C shape with 5 termini:

Think it would work?

No.

An immensely complex arrangement for a tiny number of passengers.

 

[Llanigraham]

Thing is is compared to opening new lines ect it's cheap to change a few crossings and a few direct trains to Cardiff would benefit the area if they were fast as no real commuter services or anything really

How many people commute from Pembroke to Cardiff?
Sorry but I lived in Haverfordwest for 6 years and I suspect the numbers were so small that they could be counted on one hand.

 

[Anonymous10]

How many people commute from Pembroke to Cardiff?
Sorry but I lived in Haverfordwest for 6 years and I suspect the numbers were so small that they could be counted on one hand.

Not many but giving Pembrokeshire a direct rail link to Cardiff even if only twice a day seems logical to me as it would also bring investment

 

[krus_aragon]

Not many but giving Pembrokeshire a direct rail link to Cardiff even if only twice a day seems logical to me as it would also bring investment

I think that's a more realistic objective than the OP's idea to run through services all the way to Holyhead.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

I would be interested to know how many passengers travel from Cardiff to North Wales. I would imagine very few beyond say Shrewsbury or Chester, although I may be mistaken.

Me too. Along with the train, we've got the subsidised air link.

TfW Holyhead <--> Cardiff trains are often rammed full between Chester and Bangor. I don't know how many are there for the long journey though. For example the 06:28 HHD to CDF stops on request at all stations on Anglsey. So does the 08:05 HHD to Cardiff. The 08:05 also stops at all the request stations along the North Wales coast.

 

[Anonymous10]

I think that's a more realistic objective than the OP's idea to run through services all the way to Holyhead.

To be honest I love north wales but few would go by train by contrast a direct rail link to Cardiff would be used far more by people going to Carmarthen Swansea Cardiff and further giving all of South West Wales a boost

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

I'm taking the train from Bangor to Cardiff soon. Much rather be on the train instead of driving.