EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[overthewater]

Like Denmark, who don't have an opt out to join the Euro, like Ireland who aren't in Schengen?

That's an anomaly aswell, it makes a mockery of the whole system. If we're going that way then why can't the UK have further concessions?

 

[najaB]

If were going that way then why can't the UK have further concessions?

It's entirely possible that we could have. But instead of negotiating we've thrown the toys (and ourselves) out of the pram.

 

[overthewater]

It's entirely possible that we could have. But instead of negotiating we've thrown the toys (and ourselves) out of the pram.

Didn't Cameron try in 2016?

 

[edwin_m]

That is the Question. Do people believe that staying in the EU, should result in UK staying "AS IS" on the current agreement if so why? Why is the UK not more fully integrated into the EU? Surly if UK is part of this club it should follow all the rules..

All the opt-outs were fully within the rules, as the EU agreed to make rules that said so.

Didn't Cameron try in 2016?

Yes, and secured an opt-out from "ever-closer union". We will never know what that would have meant in practice.

 

[Doppelganger]

There anomaly aswell, it make mockery of the whole system. If were going that way then why can't the UK have further concessions?

The UK already had the very best deal, plenty of opt outs, a rebate and weren't committed to further integration.

It's all academic now however...

 

[Aictos]

It's entirely possible that we could have. But instead of negotiating we've thrown the toys (and ourselves) out of the pram.

To be fair, if we weren’t leaving the EU then I would have been happy with the UK signing up to Schagen however that would depend on Ireland joining at the same time and in any case I think although I await to be corrected that doing so would mean adopting the Euro?

As it happens, we’re leaving the EU so that wouldn’t happen in any case.

 

[transmanche]

Why is the UK not more fully integrated into the EU? Surly if UK is part of this club it should follow all the rules..

The UK does follow all the rules. And the rules say:

• We don't have to join the euro... ever: if the UK government doesn't want to.
• We don't have to join Schengen... ever: if the UK government doesn't want to.
• We don't even have to change our speed limits to km/h... ever: if the UK government doesn't want to.
• We didn't have to adopt the protocol on the Social Chapter... ever: but the UK government decided later that it did want to do so.

These are all in 'the rules'.

Other countries also have various 'opt-outs', in addition to the ones highlighted by @Doppelganger above.

 

[overthewater]

Surly that makes a mockery of the whole EU system?

 

[bramling]

The UK does follow all the rules. And the rules say:

• We don't have to join the euro... ever: if the UK government doesn't want to.
• We don't have to join Schengen... ever: if the UK government doesn't want to.
• We don't even have to change our speed limits to km/h... ever: if the UK government doesn't want to.
• We didn't have to adopt the protocol on the Social Chapter... ever: but the UK government decided later that it did want to do so.

These are all in 'the rules'.

Other countries also have various 'opt-outs', in addition to the ones highlighted by @Doppelganger above.

Could Britain have opted out of free movement?

 

[najaB]

Surly that make mockery of the whole EU system?

No. It recognises that member countries have shared goals, but aren't uniform in terms of needs and cultures.

 

[Doppelganger]

Surly that make mockery of the whole EU system? Does that not also highlight the fact UK just isn't that integrated into the EU in the first place?

It's soon to be totally un-integrated, so we'll all see how well that works

 

[furnessvale]

The UK already had the very best deal, plenty of opt outs, a rebate and weren't committed to further integration.

It's all academic now however...

At what stage of further integration by all the others does our continued membership become pointless, apart from ensuring the revenue stream to the rest of course.

 

[Doppelganger]

At what stage of further integration by all the others does our continued membership become pointless, apart from ensuring the revenue stream to the rest of course.

And all the investment that came to the UK because of EU membership.

This has been done to death, yes the UK paid more into the EU than it got back in monetary terms, but it got so much more from all the inward investment.

Some choose to see the bigger picture and the advantages of being in a large collective, others think going alone is the way forward.

We'll soon find out which course of action works best.

 

[furnessvale]

And all the investment that came to the UK because of EU membership.

This has been done to death, yes the UK paid more into the EU than it got back in monetary terms, but it got so much more from all the inward investment.

Some choose to see the bigger picture and the advantages of being in a large collective, others think going alone is the way forward.

We'll soon find out which course of action works best.

I note you concentrated on the second part of my post with no reference to the first.

Given sufficient divergence as the others continue to integrate, at what stage would our continued membership be a pointless exercise.

 

[Doppelganger]

I note you concentrated on the second part of my post with no reference to the first.

Given sufficient divergence as the others continue to integrate, at what stage would our continued membership be a pointless exercise.

Well there was talk of a two tier EU, but like I said, at least where the UK is concerned, it is very much academic so we'll never know what it could have meant.

 

[overthewater]

We still have another 11 months to go.

 

[AM9]

At what stage of further integration by all the others does our continued membership become pointless, apart from ensuring the revenue stream to the rest of course.

Maybe never. The oft reported net revenue stream of £11.2bn was in itself a bit of a red herring as that figure was only true for 2013 and almost true for 2018. This ONS article shows the variations since 2010:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gove...les/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31

<iframe height="560px" width="100%" src="https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/dvc685/stacked-bar-vertical/index.html"></iframe>

Of course then there is the benefit in out trade with the EU, - always a difficult thing to extract a net figure for because it isn't just payments made and payments received. There is also the (presumed) benefit (positive or negative) of the goods and services that the trading brings. We will know just how much we have been benefitted from that when new trading agreements are in place. Depending on how many more or less jobs there are will to a large extent determine whether there is any real gain or loss in 'taking back control'. I can imagine that might be something that regular leave contributors to this forum might decline to comment on.

 

[furnessvale]

Maybe never. The oft reported net revenue stream of £11.2bn was in itself a bit of a red herring as that figure was only true for 2013 and almost true for 2018. This ONS article shows the variations since 2010:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gove...les/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31

Of course then there is the benefit in out trade with the EU, - always a difficult thing to extract a net figure for because it isn't just payments made and payments received. There is also the (presumed) benefit (positive or negative) of the goods and services that the trading brings. We will know just how much we have been benefitted from that when new trading agreements are in place. Depending on how many more or less jobs there are will to a large extent determine whether there is any real gain or loss in 'taking back control'. I can imagine that might be something that regular leave contributors to this forum might decline to comment on.

I refer you to #21584

 

[transmanche]

Given sufficient divergence as the others continue to integrate, at what stage would our continued membership be a pointless exercise.

That depends on what you mean by 'integration'. Integration of driving licence systems: so that if a German driver was caught committing a driving offence in Spain, the Spanish authorities could add points to his German licence? Or integration into a federal state. Do you mean 'integration' such as the Schengen zone or the euro? Norway is in the Schengen zone, but they are not part of the EU. Montenegro uses the euro, but they are not part of the EU.

Some people who fear federalism point towards the "ever closer union" aspiration, saying the ultimate goal must be a USofE. But the treaties making up the EU talk of "ever closer union of the peoples" of Europe, not governments. A desire to "…promote trust and understanding among peoples living in open and democratic societies…" It's referring to a symbolic rather than a federal union.

So what do you mean by integration?

 

[TrafficEng]

Some people who fear federalism point towards the "ever closer union" aspiration, saying the ultimate goal must be a USofE. But the treaties making up the EU talk of "ever closer union of the peoples" of Europe, not governments. A desire to "…promote trust and understanding among peoples living in open and democratic societies…" It's referring to a symbolic rather than a federal union.

In which case, when Cameron went to Europe to negotiate a new deal and came back with...

Yes, and secured an opt-out from "ever-closer union". We will never know what that would have meant in practice.

...What you are saying is he really came back with a symbolic deal that gave us a symbolic opt-out?

Curiously many Remain supporters I've chatted with over the last 4 years or so have been trying to convince me Cameron got a really good deal and the "ever closer union" opt-out was a substantial concession on the part of the EU. Have they been lying to me all this time?

 

[JonasB]

To be fair, if we weren’t leaving the EU then I would have been happy with the UK signing up to Schagen however that would depend on Ireland joining at the same time and in any case I think although I await to be corrected that doing so would mean adopting the Euro?

No, the Euro and Schengen are different things. Poland is in Schengen and has not adopted the euro (although they have to do so some time), and Ireland uses the euro but is not in Schengen. Croatia is trying to join both, but the processes are separate and not dependant on each other.

 

[TrafficEng]

And yet Brexiteers demand that everyone gets behind this leap into the dark, but are unwilling to say why.

Which 'Brexiteers' are demanding you get behind anything?

I'm certainly not demanding you or any other Remain supporter does anything. Other than perhaps to stop demanding I answer their questions and to stop presuming I'm stupid/thick/racist/xenophobic in the absence of a satisfactory reply.

If they are unable to give a valid tangible benefit of this endeavour, then why should those not in favour suddenly see the light and change their minds?

I have absolutely no expectation that you should see the light and change your mind. We live in a free country (freer in a few days time) and everyone is entitled to their own personal point of view.

Why do you think anyone is expecting this of you?

 

[najaB]

We live in a free country (freer in a few days time) and everyone is entitled to their own personal point of view

What additional rights do we gain in a few days time?

 

[transmanche]

...What you are saying is he really came back with a symbolic deal that gave us a symbolic opt-out

That's you drawing your own inference. I might suggest it was more like a deal that gave us a symbolic opt-out from a symbolic fraternal aspiration.

The independent fact-checking charity Full Fact summarised Cameron's 2016 EU deal:

In brief: The proposed EU deal would exempt the UK from aspiring to “an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe”. This phrase has a symbolic political impact, but has little or no legal effect. Saying that it no longer applies to the UK doesn’t change anything about how the EU works, or the powers it has.

You can read their full analysis and draw your own conclusions.

 

[transmanche]

(freer in a few days time)

How exactly will you be 'freer' in a few days time? What will you be able to do on Saturday that you cannot do today?

 

[nlogax]

We live in a free country (freer in a few days time)

So this is where the EU Referendum thread properly jumps the shark.

 

[TrafficEng]

You can read their full analysis and draw your own conclusions.

As alluded to in my previous post, I'd already drawn my own conclusions. It was my Remainer acquaintances that were seeking to convince me that Cameron had won anything substantive.

edwin_m's post in response to overthewater appeared to be a continuation of that theme.

How exactly will you be 'freer' in a few days time? What will you be able to do on Saturday that you cannot do today?

What additional rights do we gain in a few days time?

Me? Personally? I will be free of the fear that a future UK government will throw away our opt-outs, veto, rebate and rights just to prove what good Europeans they are. (and line themselves up for jobs on the EU gravy train). YMMV.

 

[Aictos]

No, the Euro and Schengen are different things. Poland is in Schengen and has not adopted the euro (although they have to do so some time), and Ireland uses the euro but is not in Schengen. Croatia is trying to join both, but the processes are separate and not dependant on each other.

Ahh thanks for explaining, so we could have joined Schengen AND kept the pound.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Could Britain have opted out of free movement?

It's a bit like saying 'can a landlord rent out a house but not give the tenant the keys'. In any case, I don't know why people are so phobic of Free Movement. We have border controls so people who are clearly unwanted can be screened. Not wanting Eastern Europeans to come is an irrational phobia.

 

[transmanche]

Me? Personally? I will be free of the fear that a future UK government will throw away our opt-outs, veto, rebate and rights just to prove what good Europeans they are.

Oh bless, how naive!

(and line themselves up for jobs on the EU gravy train).

So, like Zac Goldsmith, when they get voted out by the electorate they'll get their mates to line themselves a peerage on the House of Lords gravy train.

Not wanting Eastern Europeans to come is an irrational phobia racist.

Fixed that for you.