Is it time now to make it compulsory to have a ticket before travel. I know very small stations don't have ticket machines but now that nearly everyone has a smartphone it would make things simpler if you had to buy an e-ticket. Less work for guards, and less fare evasion or unintended non paying of fares.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
My idea for compulsory e-tickets tickets before travel
- Thread starter 404250
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
eastdyke
Established Member
Currently around 80%. I don't (amongst other reasons, eyesight issues).
Thank you very much! Oh, I can remember the number of times in the last 5 years when I got on a train without a ticket. Once.
I strongly disagree withy your idea to make it effectively compulsory to own an electronic device and show an e-ticket on such a device. It's not going to happen. Opposition for your idea would be huge.
Probably not; ticketing matters are not the primary aspect of a Guards role anyway.
I don't see how it would reduce the number of people intentionally avoiding payment of the fare.
That's an odd way of wording what you really mean, which is that people who currently have no opportunity to pay for a ticket would be told to either use a method of payment/purchase that is inconvenient to them or to simply not travel at all.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
It's probably discriminatory against those who can't use smartphones due to a disability. Even if someone has one, it could be broken or run out of battery or the sorts of station that don't have a TVM may not have a mobile signal either.
Absolutely. And even if someone can use a smartphone they may encounter difficulties using an app or understanding the range of fares available.
There are some journeys for which it is impossible to buy a ticket on some websites/apps.
Some ideas get suggested without any consideration of many of the real-world issues, and I think this is one such idea that comes under that category.
londonbridge
Established Member
- Joined
- 30 Jun 2010
- Messages
- 1,896
Couldn't agree more Yorkie.
Everyone doesn't have a smart phone. Phones lose charge. Can all legitimate means of payment be used? Above all though why the hell should passengers be inconvenienced to permit hopeless cheapskate TOCs to get away with pathetic ticketing arrangements.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Not workable , there are some very remote stations without any kind of mobile signal
Thing is, there is inevitably going to come a point - maybe not everywhere, but in urban areas - where some forms of payment are going to not be accepted at some stations. It's just common sense, when it gets to a point where it's a tiny minority of potential customers that the cost to the company running the service massively outweighs any possible benefit.
Not saying I like that, or agree with it, but I can't see any reason it wouldn't happen.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Again, not always possible. There are still people who do not have/use computers or mobile devices and there are plenty of stations with no facilities to buy in advance.
The current system may not be perfect, but it certainly isn't broken, so why do we need to do anything?
I did say...
However, I disagree that the system isn't broken - it's massively broken. It's too complicated for most passengers to really understand, and it is a direct source of conflict with staff (and sometimes even the courts). Hence my support for a simplified system with a blanket 'buy before you board' policy in all but the most rural areas where TVMs are an impossibility. I don't, it's worth saying, have a problem with companies refusing to accept cash for ticket sales either. I think provided a 'mechanism of last resort' is available for passengers who genuinely have no other method of payment that's not an issue (and no, I don't think people should be able to opt to pay in cash for no reason other than they prefer it - it's 2020, it's time to move on). That mechanism could be as simple as loading cash onto a contactless payment card, which can be obtained at the local post office/library/corner shop/other suitable venue - much needed support for those outlets then as well.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
So you intend to make it MORE complicated!
And the amount of conflict compared to the numbers of passengers is negligible, plus there are numerous problems with using electronic tickets, as has been shown in this forum.
An added level of complication!
Or is it, the rural areas aren't important and tough luck if they can't do what we urbanites want?
Again you are making it more complicated!
And I totally fail to understand this continual movement towards not using cash. There are numerous times that it is the ONLY way to do things.
Which frankly shows how complicated you want to make it.
In many rural areas Post Offices have closed, libraries have closed, shops have closed, pubs have closed, and there is NOTHING there, and it requires a 30 mile journey by car to get to these "centres".
Cash is King, it is always available, always valid, unlike debit cards / e-cards whatever ! Rarely see people who have had issues buying a ticket with cash, it is nearly always, electronic problem related, no battery, TVM failed. no signal to obtain ticket, wrong type of card.....
It's also easily lost, stolen, and fraudulently abused by staff (not pointing fingers, applies in every business). Cash, as a system, is pretty rubbish by any modern standard. I genuinely can't remember the last time I paid for anything in cash, and I know most of my friends and colleagues are the same.
Sometimes I choose to leave my phone at home when I go out. It's rather liberating to be off grid occasionally.
Are you saying that it should be compulsory to carry a smartphone if I wish to travel by train? Huge civil liberty issues if that's what you're suggesting.
As for the fares system being complicated there will always be complexity is a system with 2,500+ stations if you want Anytime, Off Peak, Super Off Peak, Single and Return tickets. That's before you start adding in 1st class. Be under no illusions if fares are simplified it will result in passengers paying more to travel.
Are you saying that it should be compulsory to carry a smartphone if I wish to travel by train? Huge civil liberty issues if that's what you're suggesting.
As for the fares system being complicated there will always be complexity is a system with 2,500+ stations if you want Anytime, Off Peak, Super Off Peak, Single and Return tickets. That's before you start adding in 1st class. Be under no illusions if fares are simplified it will result in passengers paying more to travel.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think that would be going too far. However, I could be inclined to support compulsory ticketing with TVMs and the railway moving to only accept cash at staffed stations (with a view to phase cash acceptance out completely over the next 10-20 years), and perhaps via an agreement with PayPoint or similar to issue printed-out e-tickets for cash in their stores in the manner that, say, Post Offices sell National Express coach e-tickets.
There will however be very rural lines where TVMs just don't make financial sense - the likes of the Far North, S&C, Conwy Valley, Cumbrian Coast etc. For these I would reintroduce the Paytrain concept of ticket sales on-board always being permitted (regardless of what other opportunity existed) unless the installation of ticket barriers would make it impractical.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
As I've said before I think ceasing cash acceptance other than at staffed stations or possibly Paytrain routes (where all sales would be on-board) would be a reasonable and sensible move provided there was an alternative i.e. PayPoints or similar. TVMs are far less likely to be vandalised or robbed if they don't contain any cash, and a 20 quid note in your wallet when boarding at stations with card only TVMs (plus potentially a Promise to Pay where applicable) is basically just a token to allow you to pay when challenged, very similar to the way people used to carry scratch-off Merseytravel Saveaways unscratched and just quickly scratch them off if they saw inspectors board.
However I don't think it's proportionate to require you to obtain a ticket in advance if the station has no facility at all.
I think you're conflating two issues:
- The fares structure, which is complicated, and some people certainly think is broken (or in need of reform).
- Ticketing formats, of which some (like m-tickets) seem to have issues, but physical card tickets seem to be very well accepted and understood by the majority of the population. Whilst train companies probably don't like paying for it, I don't think you can say that the paper ticket format is in any way "broken".
Snow1964
Established Member
E-tickets (unlike printed ones) are pretty useless if you don’t have a smartphone, or have a phone with no battery.
They are also useless to hand out to groups. If 3 of your work colleagues are getting a train to event, but might get different trains, you can give them physical tickets, but can’t hand over your multi buy e-ticket
Dum idea, you need to have a card or cash permit to travel at every station (however remote) unless you have paytrains
They are also useless to hand out to groups. If 3 of your work colleagues are getting a train to event, but might get different trains, you can give them physical tickets, but can’t hand over your multi buy e-ticket
Dum idea, you need to have a card or cash permit to travel at every station (however remote) unless you have paytrains
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
E-tickets issue one barcode per person so as not to clog up barriers, don't they?
Assuming I'm correct and they do, you simply forward them their PDF and they use it as they wish. Actually easier than having to meet them to hand around physical tickets.
(Note I'm talking about proper e-tickets, not any misdescribed m-tickets or hybrids as some TOCs like to use)
Baxenden Bank
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Oct 2013
- Messages
- 4,759
No, it isn't time.
Just as it it isn't time (and hopefully never will be) to insist on payment in advance by smartphone for so many other day-to-day transactions.
Some people like paying that way, fine, keep it as an option, but don't force it on everyone else.
How is that chain of coffee shop (singular) which refuses to accept cash getting on? Has it achieved world domination yet, or been simply forgotten about?
If simpler is your ultimate aim, make train travel free.
If a TOC, RDG or Dft wish to provide everyone who requests one with a free smartphone including free data, in order to enable them to meet your requirement, than I still see only minimal merit with your proposal. Perhaps you could put someone on each station in order to offer use of their smartphone. You could give them a room to sit in and call it an office for tickets, or something similar.
Plus of course free technical assistance for those unfamiliar / uncomfortable with the technology. Also assistance for those unable to use a tiny viewable screen and touch screens due to infirmity / disability.
In addition guaranteed mobile signal at every station and chargers for those who have been out all day and lost all charge.
I think I would argue there should be one standard format, is the thing. To me, the best candidate for that is e-tickets, currently. Of course, as has been said elsewhere, there's no reason an 'e-ticket' can't be printed on a bit of a card if purchased face to face / at a TVM.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If it's in London probably just fine, I don't recall the last time I saw anyone paying for anything by cash when working at our Holborn office, and if you do offer cash you get looked at very strangely. Cash payment in London is increasingly rare. A pub tried it in Lancaster and went back to taking cash, but the North is much more of a cash culture than London is.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, I agree. Once it's viable to move to true e-ticketing, i.e. there being a record in a database of every ticket issued, you also open the option of reprints at TVMs if your phone battery has died and the likes too.
I see no reason why an e-ticket barcode could not be printed on a piece of orange card using the existing printers, or indeed on bog-roll, or whatever you might want to print it on. Format-agnostic with the e-ticket concept as the base is very much the way to go. That's why 2D barcodes are a wonderful thing.
Belperpete
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 3,702
You seem to be making a BIG assumption that e tickets are always available. There are MANY journeys for which e tickets are not available, either because they could involve cross-London travel, or because the TOC responsible for setting the fare has deliberately chosen to not enable them. NONE of my recent journeys have had e tickets available (m tickets were available for some, but I refuse to touch these deeply flawed things with a barge-pole).
As my local station has neither ticket office nor TVM, and e tickets are not available for my journeys, my only realistic option is to buy tickets on the train, and I deeply resent any insinuation that people who pay on the train are doing anything wrong.
As my local station has neither ticket office nor TVM, and e tickets are not available for my journeys, my only realistic option is to buy tickets on the train, and I deeply resent any insinuation that people who pay on the train are doing anything wrong.
I think they probably ought to consolidate around two formats. A robust well understood electronic format that can be used by the tech-savvy part of society, and a more traditional type where anybody can rock up and tender cash for a traditional ticket. That way all bases are covered.
That's because London is strange.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Cross-London travel is an interesting one. I expect TfL might eventually get sold on providing barcode readers at some gates at major interchanges if that meant that the expensive-to-maintain magstripe ticket acceptance machinery could be removed from every gate on the system, which would save a packet.
That just leaves Travelcards including outboundary ones, which could perhaps be issued on Oyster/ITSO-compatible smartcards only, or maybe even abolished entirely as the main reason for them is time-saving, but as you don't have to stop to buy a ticket on LU any more that time isn't there to be saved any more.
That just leaves Travelcards including outboundary ones, which could perhaps be issued on Oyster/ITSO-compatible smartcards only, or maybe even abolished entirely as the main reason for them is time-saving, but as you don't have to stop to buy a ticket on LU any more that time isn't there to be saved any more.
Last edited:
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That can be the same format, of course. To be an e-ticket it just needs the barcode. Why would anyone care if the credit-card sized bit of orange and green card they got from the TVM or ticket office had a barcode on it that just happened to actually be an e-ticket that they had to put onto the scanner instead of through the gate?
I'd expect to see this sooner rather than later, as maintaining magstripe-reading and writing technology is rather more expensive than simple printers and barcode scanners.
Different, perhaps. There certainly isn't a mistrust of technology in London like there often is in say rural Yorkshire and Lancashire.
Other that to children, I wonder how many cash tickets Bletchley sells each day from the ticket office and the TVM (one of the two takes cash)? Wouldn't surprise me if it was fewer than 10 (and it also wouldn't surprise me if almost all of them were to/from stations on the Marston Vale line). Whereas I'd imagine if you went to, I don't know, Shipley perhaps (picking a Yorkshire commuter station with entries/exits vaguely in the same sort of magnitude), I'd imagine it would be well into three figures.
Last edited:
Western Sunset
Established Member
In the 1950s, the Talyllyn Railway had a carriage with a small ticket window in it. Here passengers could buy their ticket from the guard, whilst standing on the platform. Might affect station dwell times on NR though.....
- Status