Apart from McDonald's and KFC there is nothing new in the Retail Park, the only "big" store that recently opened in Drumchapel recently is the Aldi.
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Ways to improve the First Glasgow Network
- Thread starter duffers2324
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Apart from McDonald's and KFC there is nothing new in the Retail Park, the only "big" store that recently opened in Drumchapel recently is the Aldi.
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Starbucks as well and tbh all 3 of them are still pretty busy and would make it more likely for people to go there than it was without them. Still think with the bingo etc too it would still get decent numbers. It was never particularly quiet when I used the 42 up there either
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I have read and answered your points
If First penalise the wrong people, it's because the whole industry are forced down that path. It's as valid for Stagecoach as for anyone else and the whole industry is boxed in accordingly.For the last time, can you explain why car usage suddenly increased in Glasgow in 2011 when it didn't in Edinburgh yet from 1997-?2011, car usage increased at the same rate in both cities?
I have read and answered your points
For the last time, can you explain why car usage suddenly increased in Glasgow in 2011 when it didn't in Edinburgh yet from 1997-?2011, car usage increased at the same rate in both cities?
My point is that other companies don't do it as much as First hence why they're losing some customers and surely a company that serve the public would take that on board? It's just common sense to listen to customers. I already answered
I very much doubt that people going to Starbucks etc is going to warrant the re-routing of a bus service.
The bus use through there was never exactly quiet anyway before the route change so it was a bit of a baffling change anyway. Would also give people options too especially from Clydebank. Would take a few mins out of the journey too. Could even put an M60 an hour through to test it
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Ok, First need better social media and there is best practice in the group.
However, and sorry to labour the point, but clearly there was car usage growth that was comparable from 1997 to 2011 in Glasgow and Edinburgh. We know the Lothian fleet was much better than First in those times.
So you believe it was the step up on fares in 2011 that precipitated a spike in car usage??? That is what you're saying, just to be precise?
It wouldn't be the only factor but it's a bigger factor than you'd think. Obviously out of town shopping improved too but cost is still a factor and it is cheaper for say a family of 3 or 4 to use car over the bus and that's something First need to take on board
Take it from someone who's been using the 40 and subsequently the 60 that people using the bus to the retail park was never busy. I've been using both services regularly since 2002. And why would people from Clydebank go to the retail park when there is a shopping centre right on their doorstep?
I've used both a fair bit too and I've got family who've used the 40/60 5/6 days a week for that long too. Different alternative plus Clydebank Shopping Centre is poor at best
If the retail park was as busy as you make it out to be then why has First stopped sending buses through it? The 3, 6A and 1C and Avondales 400 all go past the Retail park but none of them go through it. First etc etc don't just withdraw services from areas for the fun of it you know, there will be a reason and I bet that reason is that there was no demand for it.
I can only say what I seen for years. With the amount I've used the 60/M60 too I doubt there's a need for 9 buses an hour along Drumry Road East hence why I said even 1 an hour through the retail park as a tester. The 400 is another example of First taking away an option where there's still opportunity for custom too. The 1C is a great bus but with the 42 even half hourly the West end link would still be there and lately I've seen a lot of busy 400s because people still want to go to Whiteinch and Partick which First removed the option of
The 3 still offers a West End link from Drumchapel and serves Whiteinch and Partick. There are also 4 trains per hour from Drumchapel to Partick as well. There are also stations at Yoker and Garscadden which provide links to Partick so there hasn't been much of a loss as you seem to think.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It was when the M74 extension opened. That had a much greater impact on car usage in Glasgow that anything else. Imagine that - you open a £700m motorway extension and car usage massively spikes - who'd have thunk it!! Put that into perspective - they announced £500m for bus priority for the entire country. At least some moves are being made and not before time but there's no point in any operator investing in modern fleet if they are hopelessly unreliable because of traffic congestion.
Isn't there a group day ticket anyway for £9? That compares with £8.50 in Lothian and £8 in Dundee (though a much smaller area) so it's not too bad. However, you have your views and that's fine. Unfortunately, there are reasons why the entire industry has this challenge on fares and it's caused by an under financed concessionary scheme so the shortfall is placed on the shoulders of those fare paying passengers.... just as the politicians knew it would!
Any loss is still a loss though and that's why I mentioned Garscadden specifically. Would also argue that the 42 was significantly quicker than the 3 too. First taking away the 42 is the reason the 400 still has any numbers at all. Knightswood as an area is another one that highlights where First go wrong too as I've mentioned with the 4/4A cut and X4 being the replacement before. They do get a lot right but there's a lot of avoidable situations
I agree with a lot of what you say. In terms of £9 though it's still a great deal more than a car journey would be. Even say a couple had a choice of car or bus even for a day trip £9.40 on bus for 2 all days would be way above the car cost. The industry has a lot of tougher challenges but if nothing will change then it's time to adapt and that's what will show if they can draw better numbers even with everything against them
The 4/4A being cut was most likely because the people who used that part of the route now use the frequent rail service from Westerton which is only a short walk from where the terminus for the 4/4A was. I've said it before, the bus service in Glasgow is never going to win if there is a far better and quicker rail service nearby. The same applies to Kelvindale, why spend 30-40+ minutes trundling around half the West End on a bus when you can get a train and be there in half the time.
That's the thing with the 4/4A cut. The main complaint was the lack of a Knightswood to West end link so the train in that situation would be irrelevant and the M4 was meant as a replacement yet never went to Knightswood and the X4 outside of peak is unbelievably quiet. Even with being every 1 hr 10 mins at night I've seen buses run empty towards town. I do think the train will win in a lot of situations but when bus cuts throw people onto them it isn't exactly a good look and in turns more people away through bad press etc
The train gives Knightswood a West End link so it's not irrelevant. The 4/4A went through Anniesland and Hyndland, guess where the train goes. There's your link right there. And if people want to get from Partick to the likes of Byres Road or the University then they have the option of the subway to either Kelvin Hall or Hillhead and a short walk from both stations.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
As I have said before, car owners have not had an increase in running costs because fuel duty has been frozen. Meanwhile, bus operators have had more and more legislation placed on them. Trying to compete on price is a non starter. Also, the bus passenger survey showed that First was fairly average (not the best, not the worst) as regards value for money for farepayers.
If you want to achieve a shift from car to bus, shat you have to do is make sure that buses are reliable (can keep to time), ensure investment from operators, improve interavailability of ticketing (all as the carrot) and then reduce the attractiveness of car usage. It's not about price, irrespective of what it says on Twitter.
If anything car users have had a decrease in running costs with cars becoming more efficient and using less fuel or in the case of electric cars, none at all. They're also becoming easier to acquire thanks to the plethora of financing/leasing options meaning people can get a new car every few years for not a lot of money. Obviously buses themselves are becoming more fuel efficient aswell but that saving is irrelevant if they can't get bums on seats in the first place.
You say about it not being about price but the fact it's a common reason people give for not using bus shows that it is plus if value for money is only average then cost is still a factor. Reliability is a big problem but cost is 100% a factor. First need to be cheaper for people than using a car is to even have a chance
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
A factor but not the major factor. These are actual published statistics, you know.
The fact it's still a factor is part of the issue though which is entirely my point. Timetables being more realistic therefore making services run more to timetable will definitely help but it needs lower prices too
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Yes but not as important as you’re suggesting, and this is customer feedback. Most people believe that they do get value for money.
Over the years no one has managed to make the a service through the retail park work, even the current local area CB2 doesn't do much business there. In addition to First it has been served by Glasgow Citybus and McColl's but neither of them could make it work either.
In Glasgow the train is a major threat, until someone is done to the road network both within the city and the primary routes in and out of it the buses will struggle to provide a viable alternative. What happens in a few years time when the Glasgow suburban rail network reaches saturation point is another question which is going to be difficult to answer.
The timetables are realistic, you seem to be forgetting that buses share the road with other traffic and any hold up in that traffic is obviously going to affect bus timetables along with other things like road closures and roadworks.
Not all of them are. Seen plenty of buses barely stop and still be very late even if the roads are quiet. Other things cause problems but these need to be shown in the timetables as they'd then be more realistic. Use peak times as the best example. It's obvious buses will take 10/15mins longer overall minimum but there's plenty of timetables this isn't reflected in
You can't factor roadworks or heavy traffic into a timetable because if you did and buses ran to time they would then run early and have to sit waiting at stops if the roadworks and heavy traffic factored into the timetables wasn't there. Bus companies don't have crystal balls telling them when traffic is going to be heavy because it isn't that predictable. I leave my work every day at 4 pm and go home via Maryhill Road, one day I'll get stuck at lights for 1 or 2 changes of the lights and the next day it'll be totally clear.
I'm talking about areas where the traffic never changes and it's always busy. The 1s towards Glasgow City Centre are a great example. The 1/1A/1B are rarely on time off peak let alone at peaks but the timetable doesn't even have any extra minutes at peaks. It's busy at the same part every single day at the same times. It's not hard to factor in that bit of realism into a timetable. If minutes were added in buses still wouldn't be sitting early very often but they'd definitely be closer to on time. I'm not saying go crazy with it but adding in some leeway here or there would make more buses run to time or not very late
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