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Ways to improve the First Glasgow Network

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TheGrandWazoo

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Definitely agree with a lot of what you are saying and Glasgow is as car-centric as any city I've been to but the thing is cost, especially for families, is a constantly mentioned factor as to why car is just miles better so if the bus would also still need to be cheaper anyway to be more attractive. All being stricter on cars within the city centre has done is make people go to out of city shops instead of the city centre and not really fix the problem if anything it's worse now with the likes of Silverburn, Glasgow Fort and Braehead be as popular as they've ever been. Plenty of failures from the council but First definitely miss the mark here more than it looks by not doing anything with routes outside of their core ones. First also need to make their timetables a little more realistic too in certain regards and this may help the reliability. Seen it too many times where the roads are very quiet and the bus isn't busy yet it's still 10/15 mins late. The 1/1A/1B are definitely great examples of this. The timings between Clydebank and Scotstoun are different to that of Scotstoun to Clydebank yet it's the exact same route. Could be made directly every 10 mins like it is from Clydebank towards Dumbarton and from the A82 to Old Kilpatrick instead of the 8 min then 12 min mess that it currently is. Since I've been about 5/6(I'm 25 now) the 2 most common reasons I've seen and heard for not using the bus have been cost and reliability and there's more that definitely needs to be done for First to keep numbers from falling so much more. It's been lucky that there's not really been a credible opposition to First and if there was I fear that a lot more would switch

The issue of cost in relation to buses vs cars is again well known. If you look at the cost of car ownership, fuel costs have barely moved because the government has successively not changed fuel duty. However, for bus operators, they have had to deal with a cut in BSOG in 2012 that essentially is a grant to support fare levels so fares had to go up. Then factor in the costs of meeting various emissions requirements; that's before you look at other items that have loaded costs onto the operators like pension changes or insurance increase. Put it another way, operators could halve fares but unless they get a more than doubling of patronage (and that's unlikely), it's something that they really can't do. Also, as I've explained, the concessionary fare reimbursement formula means that casual users are disproportionately affected; if you're a regular commuter, a 4 week pass means you're paying less than £3 per day to travel - less than a Costa! That's decent value. If I were to compare with, say, Stagecoach in Manchester, their weekly pass is £16.50 vs First Glasgow at £17.00 so it's not dissimilar.

As for the decline of city centre shopping vs out of town centres, that's something that has been happening for the last 30 plus years as planning guidelines allowed that to occur. That the decline is now more marked is down to other factors like business rates. However, the real issue is the peak times that are the problem and that's down to commuters, not shoppers.

It has to be, IMHO, a carrot and stick approach. The operators have to be locked into providing improved fleet and ticketing though the latter is an issue because of competition issues; that's where the PTE can come in and support a partnership. Operators have to provide a modern, clean, frequent alternative. Similarly, the PTE can act to ensure that the bus can get the benefit of bus priority, ensuring that times are maintained. I've experienced buses being 10 mins late on a quiet day but all it takes is a phantom set of temporary lights or a badly parked courier van (sat in bus lane, hazards flashing) for that to happen. Or that quite simply, an earlier run has been so delayed in the morning peak that the return journey just can't get back in time. It's a constant battle these days to ensure that timetables are realistic to cope with day to day traffic. Lastly, unfettered car use has to be discouraged either from hampering progress by allowing buses priority, and reducing the amount of cheap, all day parking.

There are undoubtedly things that First (and other operators) could do. First have certainly been guilty of under-investment in the past and for well documented reasons. That Glasgow had to survive on ex London cascades and a few crumbs of new vehicle investment is not uncommon, and it was always the case that those years of under-investment were going to take a long time to put right. However, Andrew Jarvis is a very experienced bus man and he doubtless knows where the potential is in the network and is focussing on that but, at the the same time, the amount of cash available is finite.
 
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PaulMc7

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As far as pricing goes I'd only trim it slightly especially with singles.

£1.30/£1.40 short hop- 1 area
£2 medium hop- 2/3 areas
£3 long hop-More than 2/3 areas but within the same zone
£4-Ultra hop- From zone to zone e.g. Hamilton to Glasgow

All days for city zone £4
Network all day £5
 

Glasgowbusguy

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Govan would be ideal if u could
1. use the spot facilities currently there
2.use it for the 89/90 3 49 34/A
3.treat it like an out station could even be used as a driver break so have drivers swap there for breaks then after there break takeover a bus to give a new driver there break
 

Glasgowbusguy

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As far as pricing goes I'd only trim it slightly especially with singles.

£1.30/£1.40 short hop- 1 area
£2 medium hop- 2/3 areas
£3 long hop-More than 2/3 areas but within the same zone
£4-Ultra hop- From zone to zone e.g. Hamilton to Glasgow

All days for city zone £4
Network all day £5

Fares are the biggest thing that's why u made mention maybe even throught tickets could be used
 

CM

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Govan would be ideal if u could
1. use the spot facilities currently there
2.use it for the 89/90 3 49 34/A
3.treat it like an out station could even be used as a driver break so have drivers swap there for breaks then after there break takeover a bus to give a new driver there break

Spot facilities?
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
As far as pricing goes I'd only trim it slightly especially with singles.

£1.30/£1.40 short hop- 1 area
£2 medium hop- 2/3 areas
£3 long hop-More than 2/3 areas but within the same zone
£4-Ultra hop- From zone to zone e.g. Hamilton to Glasgow

All days for city zone £4
Network all day £5

Better still, there would ideally be just the one flat fare not just for First Bus but for all operators in Glasgow and the former Strathclyde PTE area with integrated ticketing.

After all, a flat fare for the buses works well in London from a passenger perspective, as everyone knows exactly how much the fare would be.
 

CM

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Better still, there would ideally be just the one flat fare not just for First Bus but for all operators in Glasgow and the former Strathclyde PTE area with integrated ticketing.

After all, a flat fare for the buses works well in London from a passenger perspective, as everyone knows exactly how much the fare would be.

Just because it works in London doesn't automatically mean it will work in Glasgow. The former Strathclyde PTE are IIRC is actually larger than the current TfL area and I doubt operators would be willing to let someone on a service from say Ayr to Glasgow for £1.50 or whatever it is.
 

Jordan Adam

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Better still, there would ideally be just the one flat fare not just for First Bus but for all operators in Glasgow and the former Strathclyde PTE area with integrated ticketing.

After all, a flat fare for the buses works well in London from a passenger perspective, as everyone knows exactly how much the fare would be.

A flat fare wouldn't work at all in Glasgow/Strathclyde, the geographical area is too large and a fortune in revenue would be lost if the price wasn't set to something insanely high. I think multiple single fares based on fare stages along with zonal day/period tickets works best.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Better still, there would ideally be just the one flat fare not just for First Bus but for all operators in Glasgow and the former Strathclyde PTE area with integrated ticketing.

After all, a flat fare for the buses works well in London from a passenger perspective, as everyone knows exactly how much the fare would be.

London’s fares are massively subsidised.

Bristol has a flat fare but does mean that those closer in pay disproportionately more than those on the outskirts of the area. Of course, Bristol is much smaller than Glasgow so the distance variance would be more pronounced.
 

PaulMc7

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Definitely need a multiple stage system like the one I suggested. The current system is confusing for even the drivers from experience and it puts off a lot of people as the fares cause you to need to spend to have change for the bus in the first place. Contactless being usable does help significantly but a round number fare system would be easier for customers
 

CM

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Definitely need a multiple stage system like the one I suggested. The current system is confusing for even the drivers from experience and it puts off a lot of people as the fares cause you to need to spend to have change for the bus in the first place. Contactless being usable does help significantly but a round number fare system would be easier for customers

They'd still need to get the correct change for the bus regardless of whether it was a "round number" fare system or not unless of course, you use contactless. I don't see how the current fare system can be confusing for drivers as AFAIK the ticket machines will have all fare information available and within Greater Glasgow, you basically only have 2 single fares, the short 5 stop max fare and the full single fare for everything else. It's only when you venture into Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire that the fares become based on the distance I believe.
 

route101

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They'd still need to get the correct change for the bus regardless of whether it was a "round number" fare system or not unless of course, you use contactless. I don't see how the current fare system can be confusing for drivers as AFAIK the ticket machines will have all fare information available and within Greater Glasgow, you basically only have 2 single fares, the short 5 stop max fare and the full single fare for everything else. It's only when you venture into Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire that the fares become based on the distance I believe.

They changed to that system in 2011 , but is there a fare that has been added like city to bridgton of that radius.
 

PaulMc7

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They'd still need to get the correct change for the bus regardless of whether it was a "round number" fare system or not unless of course, you use contactless. I don't see how the current fare system can be confusing for drivers as AFAIK the ticket machines will have all fare information available and within Greater Glasgow, you basically only have 2 single fares, the short 5 stop max fare and the full single fare for everything else. It's only when you venture into Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire that the fares become based on the distance I believe.

Would be far easier for people to have correct change for a round number than something that isn't. You'd be amazed. The amount of times I've seen people get charged £1.70 but then get charged £2.50 for the exact same journey the next day is unreal. There's been the odd occasion I've got single fares and they've differed too. Partly why I'm glad I use longer phone tickets now. Saves a lot of confusion. The Lanarkshire ones are odd from what I remember. Singles used to be more expensive than the local all day when I used to use the 201 to my friends in Calderwood from Hamilton
 

lastbus

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Definitely need a multiple stage system like the one I suggested. The current system is confusing for even the drivers from experience and it puts off a lot of people as the fares cause you to need to spend to have change for the bus in the first place. Contactless being usable does help significantly but a round number fare system would be easier for customers
Don’t know why you think the current system is confusing for drivers as within Glasgow there only is two single fares. As for your other suggestion on fares i think I’ve said it to you already but the reason single fares between the local and city zones are so high is because the concession card pot keeps being cut.
 

Jordan Adam

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The only thing i see missing in Glasgow are "corridor period tickets". These being day/week/monthly tickets valid on set route(s) (corridors).
 

Jordan Adam

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You'd be amazed. The amount of times I've seen people get charged £1.70 but then get charged £2.50 for the exact same journey the next day is unreal. T

Maybe if passengers stated logical "key" locations. The issue is many passengers will ask for a random street in the middle of the route rather than something logical that more people are aware of.
 

PaulMc7

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Maybe if passengers stated logical "key" locations. The issue is many passengers will ask for a random street in the middle of the route rather than something logical that more people are aware of.

Its happened when people are said specific areas too. Seems to differ from driver to driver on certain routes at times from experience
 

route101

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I know for some changes mentioned by others there's definitely more a wishlist vibe to them and based off of unlimited budget hence why a lot of mines are more just alterations and not lots of extras. I've mentioned cuts a lot through some of my changes too. My main mention of anything has always been don't cut something without ever trying to change it. I would look at the loss-makers and low passenger services and see if anything could be done to improve them without taking them off completely as I think that's been a big reason for the drop in customer numbers over the years. Having no alternative option basically means people have no choice but to switch to car or train and it's something any bus company needs to tread carefully with. There's a lot of potential for great use of buses in Glasgow but the network is a bit stagnant currently and reliability is a huge issue that is never really ever addressed in timetables. Definitely build a network around the core routes but never leave the rest untouched for too long.

I would also take customer feedback on board far more too. Social media could be used so much better by First and it would definitely benefit them to have a local team that could be so much more helpful.

I would also look at fare prices too and reduce them a bit. It's far too easy for train to be value over buses especially if people don't use the bus much out of their working week. Railcards are cheap and Smartcards are an option too and the discounts off of train fares are very much worth it. A lot of people do prefer speed over cost but when cost is also worse then the bus isn't going to win overall

The train is fairly cheap with a railcard , if i stayed in Mount Florida i would not use the bus often .
Yeah , First Glasgow does not really use social media. I see ads for the 18 but thats it. Yeah , stagnent , you dont much route development in Glasgow. I think Glasgow people dont like new things.
 

route101

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Maybe if passengers stated logical "key" locations. The issue is many passengers will ask for a random street in the middle of the route rather than something logical that more people are aware of.

Until recently i did not know the first 31 sunday service fares differ.
 

PaulMc7

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The train is fairly cheap with a railcard , if i stayed in Mount Florida i would not use the bus often .
Yeah , First Glasgow does not really use social media. I see ads for the 18 but thats it. Yeah , stagnent , you dont much route development in Glasgow. I think Glasgow people dont like new things.

Yeah anything close to the city centre to there by train with a railcard works out a bargain compared to the bus and it will make First lose out more and more. Certain new things have worked brilliantly tbh like the 1s and 77s. Social media is First's weakest point tbh
 

route101

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Speaking of driver changes , why is the 21 run out of Blantyre? I suppose you could say the same of the 267 but that passes the depot.
 

route101

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Yeah anything close to the city centre to there by train with a railcard works out a bargain compared to the bus and it will make First lose out more and more. Certain new things have worked brilliantly tbh like the 1s and 77s. Social media is First's weakest point tbh

From like Pollokshaws East it was like £1.45 compared £3 MORE FOR THE BUS. ok you get an all day but not a cheaper return on bus now.
 

CM

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Maybe if passengers stated logical "key" locations. The issue is many passengers will ask for a random street in the middle of the route rather than something logical that more people are aware of.

Exactly, the amount of people you see getting on buses and saying something like "Maryhill please" is beyond belief considering Maryhill spans from Queens Cross all the way up to Killermont and everywhere else in between.
 
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