Questions for people who have used e-tickets

[Wallsendmag]

That would be helped were there a simple single standard for them - so get rid of m-tickets! Though sadly there will seemingly always be railway staff who like to do their job in a manner that advertises the benefits of destaffing.

@yorkie I'm pleased to see they are being abolished, is there a timescale yet?

Last November for us

 

[Starmill]

I prefer a paper ticket because when I bought something described by TransPennine Express as an e-ticket, I wasn't permitted to print it out or show it on any device other than the phone associated with that account. The ticket in question was a sale ticket, so had to be bought on their website.

On another occasion, someone I was travelling with had an Off Peak Day Return which they wished to excess to use at a time of day that would otherwise be restricted, but the ticket office refused to issue any excesses for e-tickets, saying they'd need to buy a new ticket. In the end, the person I was travelling with was given permission to use their invalid ticket without paying extra.

A further problem has arisen for me personally in that e-tickets are frequently not recognised at gatelines at intermediate stations, this would make 2D code only tickets quite unsuitable as season tickets.

Finally, some sites still try to sell m-tickets, which are very poorly implemented and theoretically take away some of the traveller's rights, while other sites still sell old self print tickets, which I find really inconvenient because of the need to access a printer.

Finally, if one buys an Advance ticket online for ToD and then wishes to amend it at a station, say, 10 minutes before the deadline to do so (when the train departs), that can be done. However, a station will not be able to help with an e-ticket. So how can you convert your Advance ticket to an Off Peak Single (say) on payment of the £10 fee if you only have 10 minutes to go?

A final reason is that I have seen many situations where a member of staff creates a confrontation with a customer about the validity of the ticket because the staff do not have a scanner. This has ranged from the claim being made that the ticket isn't a real ticket, to the ticket isn't valid on that company, to the ticket is specific to the organisation from which it was bought.

To put it another way, the range of products becomes too confusing.

While confusion remains among staff and passengers about consumer rights under these circumstances, I am unlikely to adopt the new technology fulsomely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going back ton the original question, I've used e-Tickets both here and abroad. Particularly useful if you want to extend a journey when on the train or if you want to use an operator that is all or mostly "booked train only" with no walk up tickets (e.g. Amtrak or FLIX).

I've even (ssh!) bought one on the train at a non-barriered station. Prior to departure, of course, but I decided to get on early, take a seat and purchase once seated. I would of course have alighted (or had a word with the guard) had it not worked for any reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I prefer a paper ticket because when I bought something described by TransPennine Express as an e-ticket, I wasn't permitted to print it out or show it on any device other than the phone associated with that account. The ticket in question was a sale ticket, so had to be bought on their website.

That's an m-ticket, not an e-ticket. Fraud, much?

On another occasion, someone I was travelling with had an Off Peak Day Return which they wished to excess to use at a time of day that would otherwise be restricted, but the ticket office refused to issue any excesses for e-tickets, saying they'd need to buy a new ticket. In the end, the person I was travelling with was given permission to use their invalid ticket without paying extra.

I don't understand why e-tickets can't be excessed in the traditional manner. @yorkie what's the rule on this?

 

[Starmill]

That's an m-ticket, not an e-ticket. Fraud, much?

A complaint was made and I was unable to make head nor tale of the response from TransPennine Express. A crucial difference between an old-fashioned m-ticket and the one in their app was that it does not require activation. It does prohibit screenshots or printing, though. Safe to say I will not be using the option again.

 

[Starmill]

Back on thread, though - eTickets are great, though I am slightly biased...

I think the design and the standard is unquestionably excellent.

The problem is the customer service practices of the companies on whose services the tickets are used. Of course, these practices haven't changed, they were pretty similar with orange card tickets. In short the question is one of good management more than anything else. The standards and the data are all worked out pretty well, from what I've seen.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Finally, if one buys an Advance ticket online for ToD and then wishes to amend it at a station, say, 10 minutes before the deadline to do so (when the train departs), that can be done. However, a station will not be able to help with an e-ticket. So how can you convert your Advance ticket to an Off Peak Single (say) on payment of the £10 fee if you only have 10 minutes to go?

At least for the next few weeks

 

[35B]

Screen shot the relevant part of "My Account"

Hadn’t thought of that, might just be a plan

 

[35B]

There is nothing to stop you giving them a printout.

Everything will be an e-ticket at some point; the question will then be whether or not you choose to print them.

Those who voted against e-tickets haven't yet given a good explanation why they don't work for them though. The argument appears to be that some people insist on a printout, but don't have easy access to a printer? So that's more of an argument to say that TOD collection machines should be replaced with machines that print e-tickets, surely? The problem would be who pays for them.

It is unusual to see you and @Bletchleyite taking the same position! The issue is one of personal preference - I’ve given examples of where each has suited me better - and, in some cases (e.g. the friend) good old fashioned customer service.

For as long as people are going to need to purchase tickets for ad hoc travel, there will be a need for a medium in which they can be provided in a means that is available to any customer, any time. The orange card is about as good a format as has existed, and it should be maintained - without the discriminatory pricing indulged in by TfL.

 

[Starmill]

At least for the next few weeks

My experience is that retailers generally refuse to permit amendments after the train has departed, even if you placed the call to them or sent in a request by email before the departure time, and were actually waiting for them to respond.

 

[maniacmartin]

I stick with paper tickets for the reasons Starmill gave in post 152. Also, different TOCs have different definitions of what is an e-ticket and what is an m ticket, so you never know what you’re going to get.

Most of the tickets I buy are for someone else, so any mtickets that require *my* phone specifically will be useless for my needs. With ToD you’re guaranteed to get a ticket you can give to your partner or whoever you’re buying for without them having to install apps etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My experience is that retailers generally refuse to permit amendments after the train has departed, even if you placed the call to them or sent in a request by email before the departure time, and were actually waiting for them to respond.

ITYF that a ticket office will be exactly the same. An Advance must be amended, i.e. the transaction completed, prior to the scheduled departure of the train. That you were in the queue or having a chat about the weather first will hold no value, nor does the train being late.

At least with e-tickets I can potentially do that amendment from my phone on the way to the station when I know I'm going to miss the train. I've done that for flights more than once too! Most notably, when I was weekly commuting by easyJet, my alarm woke me up at 4am, I felt like death due to a cold, so I changed the flight to the afternoon one, set a more sensible alarm and went back to sleep in the space of about 5 minutes.

FWIW, regarding Advances, I'm tempted to say they should offer a "rescue fee" like airlines do, i.e. a higher admin fee for amending just after departure (within 30 minutes maybe?) if you've only just missed it but you don't lose your ticket's value. Perhaps it could be increased to £20 for that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is unusual to see you and @Bletchleyite taking the same position! The issue is one of personal preference - I’ve given examples of where each has suited me better - and, in some cases (e.g. the friend) good old fashioned customer service.

For as long as people are going to need to purchase tickets for ad hoc travel, there will be a need for a medium in which they can be provided in a means that is available to any customer, any time. The orange card is about as good a format as has existed, and it should be maintained - without the discriminatory pricing indulged in by TfL.

But that isn't incompatible with it being an e-ticket. An e-ticket just means (a) the ticket is a record in a database, the thing you have is just a reference to it, and (b) in railway terms, it is referred to using a 2D barcode. No reason why you couldn't walk up to a TVM and purchase an e-ticket, the referring barcode to which could then be printed on a bit of orange card for you. Perhaps if you had something like a Railcard or other identification to use at the TVM, it could even be attached to your railway ticketing account, and so cancelled and reprinted if you lost it. Win-win, no?

 

[maniacmartin]

Another reason I buy paper tickets is that I’ve never bought a non-advance ticket as an e-ticket and I’m worried that a TOC might do something silly like print the details of the services you clicked in a way that makes them appear like mandatory seat reservations

My reasons for sticking with orange tickets are all down to not trusting TOCs to implement it properly, not the concept of an e-ticket itself. After all, airlines have been using them for ages without issue.

 

[jfollows]

Those who voted against e-tickets haven't yet given a good explanation why they don't work for them though.

OK, to be clear, I do not want an e-ticket because I do not trust the competence or training or equipment of the staff whom I might meet along my journey to handle the ticket correctly. They are much better than m-tickets, I think we all agree on that, and if they are advance tickets for specific trains (therefore on specific operators) then I'm prepared to take the risk. If I were to use them for my usual split ticket Wilmslow-University (Birmingham) then I would not want to take the risk.

If e-tickets printed out in a similar format to orange card tickets then perhaps this would circumvent some of the potential staff issues.

I have never had a problem with the use of an e-ticket, but then again I have used several thousand times the number of paper tickets and never had a problem with these either.

Until I feel confident using them, I will stick with paper tickets in most cases.

 

[Adam Williams]

We offer both.

Do you not think it should be an accreditation requirement for the sake of consistency?

It does frustrate me that passengers can get a radically different e-ticket experience based on which retailer they happen to use. Some send email PDFs, some ask for "activation" when showing in app, some work on Android with Google Pay, some don't.

 

[yorkie]

I stick with paper tickets for the reasons Starmill gave in post 152. Also, different TOCs have different definitions of what is an e-ticket and what is an m ticket, so you never know what you’re going to get.

Most of the tickets I buy are for someone else, so any mtickets that require *my* phone specifically will be useless for my needs. With ToD you’re guaranteed to get a ticket you can give to your partner or whoever you’re buying for without them having to install apps etc.

Do you not think it should be an accreditation requirement for the sake of consistency?

It does frustrate me that passengers can get a radically different e-ticket experience based on which retailer they happen to use. Some send email PDFs, some ask for "activation" when showing in app.

These are not e-tickets.

It is appalling that some train companies are issuing m-tickets falsely labelled as e-tickets; those retailers are causing confusion and bringing the rail industry into disrepute.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another reason I buy paper tickets is that I’ve never bought a non-advance ticket as an e-ticket and I’m worried that a TOC might do something silly like print the details of the services you clicked in a way that makes them appear like mandatory seat reservations

To allay your fear, it doesn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is appalling that some train companies are issuing m-tickets falsely labelled as e-tickets; those retailers are causing confusion and bringing the rail industry into disrepute.

I agree, including those (Avanti, WMT etc) who can't be bothered implementing proper e-ticket display in their apps, and so show them in the app as an m-ticket.

 

[talltim]

If the inspector needs to be physically nearer the passenger, then their scanner should be replaced with a better one. I just tested this, displaying a dense QR code for this page's fairly long address on my monitor, resizing it to the size of my phone screen, then starting the barcode scanner app on my phone and walking to it across the office. It scans easily about 1.5m away. Slightly more if the monitor brightness is low so the scanner does not get confused by the web page's brightness. I cannot read the details off a card ticket quickly at 1.5m. And this is with a low-end phone camera. A dedicated scanner should beat it easily.

I’ve just done some more observation of the passengers standing around me on a Northern train. One guy had some some sort of season/pass that just needed a glance. A woman had a large QR code on her phone, took a while to read using the guard’s phone as each time he got it lined up the train swayed. In the end he had to hold her phone steady (while she was still holding it)
Another woman had a card single or return that he looked at and clipped very quickly. Last guy also had a QR code, but it was smaller in terms of how much screen it took up and his phone was smaller. He had the same problem with the devices moving relative to each other and in the end he had to take the phone off him to read it. Then he had to give it back to him to bring up his railcard. I would say that it took roughly as long to do three paper tickets as one of the e-tickets.
The EMT revenue staff I’ve seen have a separate reader that is linked to their devices, these seem to get a reading better, but I’ve not seen them in use on a rough riding train.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

To allay your fear, it doesn't.

You display a worrying naivety about the competence of the average TOC and its frontline employees!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Another concern I have about e-tickets is that, even though I know the T&Cs of any given ticket type are the same as those on a paper ticket, would the way the e-ticket is scanned or activated or whatever cause me trouble if I wished to break my journey?

What I mean by this is, supposing I have a standard open return ticket between, say Leeds and Manchester, the guard scans it after leaving Leeds and I decide to break my journey at Huddersfield. When the guard on my next train scans my e-ticket, will it not flag up as the ticket has already been used and therefore the guard could insist I buy a new ticket, even though I know (but he doesn't) the e-ticket is perfectly valid?

 

[ashkeba]

What I mean by this is, supposing I have a standard open return ticket between, say Leeds and Manchester, the guard scans it after leaving Leeds and I decide to break my journey at Huddersfield. When the guard on my next train scans my e-ticket, will it not flag up as the ticket has already been used and therefore the guard could insist I buy a new ticket, even though I know (but he doesn't) the e-ticket is perfectly valid?

Not as long as the scan locations don't suggest you've gone backwards in between. I think some might try to challenge it incorrectly but will it be any bigger problem than certain gatelines incorrectly not allowing breaks of journey with paper tickets?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You display a worrying naivety about the competence of the average TOC and its frontline employees!

The question was if the reservations show on an e-ticket looking in any way like a compulsory reservation, and the answer is no, they don't.

Staff are no more likely to interpret that wrongly than they are to interpret a walk-up ticket with a seat reservation that way.

 

[jfollows]

Another concern I have about e-tickets is that, even though I know the T&Cs of any given ticket type are the same as those on a paper ticket, would the way the e-ticket is scanned or activated or whatever cause me trouble if I wished to break my journey?

It should work better on an e-ticket if done properly, I suggest, because of the last point - the scan should record where the ticket is scanned and when. Worse is the general tendency to scribble all over paper tickets with a big black pen which immediately lead to this "break of journey" concern.

 

[ashkeba]

It should work better on an e-ticket if done properly, I suggest, because of the last point - the scan should record where the ticket is scanned and when. Worse is the general tendency to scribble all over paper tickets with a big black pen which immediately lead to this "break of journey" concern.

That reminds me: I have yet to have an eticket mark a neighbouring ticket as used, unlike the way the black mess felt tips and ink stampers used by some inspectors deface any facing paper ticket unless you are careful how you handle them.

But I read someone above say a return portion of an eticket was scanned on the outbound journey, which worries - but I hope it happens no more often than an inspector clipping the wrong part of a return paper ticket when it was handed over in error.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But I read someone above say a return portion of an eticket was scanned on the outbound journey, which worries - but I hope it happens no more often than an inspector clipping the wrong part of a return paper ticket when it was handed over in error.

There are reports upthread about "clipping" an e-ticket outward having marked the return as used. I don't know if that actually happened or the customer presented the wrong one - the latter is perhaps more likely as I've certainly done it with paper tickets. Indeed I got all the way from Cuffley to Euston with a group of Scouts on the return journey using the outward tickets before it was picked up. (At every other location on the way the staff didn't read the tickets and just assumed the encoding wasn't working).

 

[Starmill]

ITYF that a ticket office will be exactly the same. An Advance must be amended, i.e. the transaction completed, prior to the scheduled departure of the train. That you were in the queue or having a chat about the weather first will hold no value, nor does the train being late.

I disagree. The ticket office staff will deal with the request in time, or complete it once they've begun, and also take account of the queue which they can see before their eyes.

In my view there's no possible justification for beginning a transaction and then arbitrarily cancelling ot half way through. It would be against their training too.

 

[Nicholas43]

Today I'm travelling with what I think must be a print of an e-ticket issued by the railway at the gate line of a station where I changed trains. Off a paper roll, orange and sick green. Includes a square bar code thingy, and has an UTN. Inspector has just zapped it and nodded. Did not comment on the fact it shows a 16-25 discount instead of the requested senior.

 

[td97]

I've not tried the LNER app, going to London tomorrow so will give it a go.

Their app, one of the worst. Their website, one of the best. Swings and roundabouts

As well as the points I mentioned upthread, amending advance tickets is considerably more difficult with e-tickets than traditional tickets.

How so? For one there's no need to post the physical ticket off.

I’ve just done some more observation of the passengers standing around me on a Northern train.

There are better and worse ways of scanning the Aztec code. LNER & VT (now Avanti) issued staff with a dedicated barcode reader which scans quickly with a laser emission. Northern, on the cheaper end of the scale, issued their staff with a phone app.