Future of Class 180 Units Discussion

[greatvoyager]

The 180s have had a varying level of reliability and use since they were introduced.
With other high speed stock coming off lease in the next few years (Class 22x), and the strengthening position of Class 80x units, what could happen to the Class 180?
Will they be scrapped, or are there other operators who would be willing to take them on?

 

[elliotjelliot]

The 180s have had a varying level of reliability and use since they were introduced.
With other high speed stock coming off lease in the next few years (Class 22x), and the strengthening position of Class 80x units, what could happen to the Class 180?
Will they be scrapped, or are there other operators who would be willing to take them on?

If Grand Central plan anymore expansion along diesel routes I bet they will take them up. They seem very committed to the class 180, just finishing a £9million refurb on their current 10 units.

 

[greatvoyager]

If Grand Central plan anymore expansion along diesel routes I bet they will take them up. They seem very committed to the class 180, just finishing a £9million refurb on their current 10 units.

That could happen, and if so, I wonder if the 4 ex-HT examples are going to need a more substantial overhaul. It seems as if the Grand Central units are more reliable.

 

[elliotjelliot]

That could happen, and if so, I wonder if the 4 ex-HT examples are going to need a more substantial overhaul. It seems as if the Grand Central units are more reliable.

They probably would need one. I think when HT needed 3 out of 4 units to run it service, it seems believable that the units may not have received the best maintenance, hence all the fires.

 

[greatvoyager]

They probably would need one. I think when HT needed 3 out of 4 units to run it service, it seems believable that the units may not have received the best maintenance, hence all the fires.

Weren't the HT 180s maintained at Old Oak Common a couple of years ago, alongside the GWR units?

 

[elliotjelliot]

Weren't the HT 180s maintained at Old Oak Common a couple of years ago, alongside the GWR units?

Yeah I believe so, then I think they moved to crofton when old oak closed

 

[Kieran1990]

Yeah I believe so, then I think they moved to crofton when old oak closed

and their performance got worse once they moved back to crofton. GWR’s team knew the units from new.

 

[greatvoyager]

Yeah I believe so, then I think they moved to crofton when old oak closed

That sounds about right.

 

[greatvoyager]

and their performance got worse once they moved back to crofton. GWR’s team knew the units from new.

Such a shame really, they aren't too bad when they're reliable.

 

[greatvoyager]

Is there any reason why the coupling cover isn't used anymore? Is it just for convenience?

 

[coradiafan2000]

Grand Central have just refurbished their 180 fleet right? I can't see them leaving for the foreseeable future. As for the ex Hull Trains units (after they have finished their short spell on the MML, they're still doing that aren't they?), I'm sure there are plenty of places they could go.

Grand Central have shown that the 180s can be decently reliable when maintained properly, so I'm sure someone could take them up. My vote goes towards XC, so we can finally get some proper intercity trains on the Cardiff- Nottingham and Birmingham- Stansted routes.

 

[greatvoyager]

Grand Central have just refurbished their 180 fleet right? I can't see them leaving for the foreseeable future. As for the ex Hull Trains units (after they have finished their short spell on the MML, they're still doing that aren't they?), I'm sure there are plenty of places they could go.

Grand Central have shown that the 180s can be decently reliable when maintained properly, so I'm sure someone could take them up. My vote goes towards XC, so we can finally get some proper intercity trains on the Cardiff- Nottingham and Birmingham- Stansted routes.

If GC get more paths, maybe they'll take on the remaining units, as suggested further up.
I would also agree on Cardiff-Nottingham services too.

 

[VT 390]

Grand Central have just refurbished their 180 fleet right? I can't see them leaving for the foreseeable future. As for the ex Hull Trains units (after they have finished their short spell on the MML, they're still doing that aren't they?), I'm sure there are plenty of places they could go.

Grand Central have shown that the 180s can be decently reliable when maintained properly, so I'm sure someone could take them up. My vote goes towards XC, so we can finally get some proper intercity trains on the Cardiff- Nottingham and Birmingham- Stansted routes.

As there are only 4 Hull Trains units I do not think it would be a good idea for Cross Country to operate them as it would mean having a very small fleet of completely different trains to the ones they currently operate, and with the Avanti 221's and East Midlands 222's being available in a few years I think these would be better for XC than 180's.

 

[coradiafan2000]

As there are only 4 Hull Trains units I do not think it would be a good idea for Cross Country to operate them as it would mean having a very small fleet of completely different trains to the ones they currently operate, and with the Avanti 221's and East Midlands 222's being available in a few years I think these would be better for XC than 180's.

It's still better to have a handful of them on the ex 170 routes than none at all though right? Most of them would still be worked by 170s but the 180 worked ones could be marketed as "premium" or "express" services. I don't know.

I think the 221s and 222s are better used on the core XC routes to boost capacity than replacing 170s, at least right now.

 

[greatvoyager]

It's still better to have a handful of them on the ex 170 routes than none at all though right? Most of them would still be worked by 170s but the 180 worked ones could be marketed as "premium" or "express" services. I don't know.

I think the 221s and 222s are better used on the core XC routes to boost capacity than replacing 170s, at least right now.

I wonder if the 180s could be used as a standby option?

 

[ZL exile]

Or just bin all of the gas guzzling voyager family and order some proper length IC style bi-modes to replace them all, could even order some shorter ones to replace the turbostars to give a common XC fleet.
Voyagers will be close to the top of the list of disliked trains once the pacers have all left although probably beaten to the title by the Class 150’s

 

[greatvoyager]

Or just bin all of the gas guzzling voyager family and order some proper length IC style bi-modes to replace them all, could even order some shorter ones to replace the turbostars to give a common XC fleet.
Voyagers will be close to the top of the list of disliked trains once the pacers have all left although probably beaten to the title by the Class 150’s

Not everyone hates them though. I guess people either enjoy using them or can't stand them.

 

[VT 390]

It's still better to have a handful of them on the ex 170 routes than none at all though right? Most of them would still be worked by 170s but the 180 worked ones could be marketed as "premium" or "express" services. I don't know.

I think the 221s and 222s are better used on the core XC routes to boost capacity than replacing 170s, at least right now.

As XC will be getting extra centre carriages for some 170's soon this should provide a bit more capacity for a short time and when the 221/222's are available the 221's could strengthen existing Voyager services and the 222's operating the Cardiff-Nottingham services (and maybe some other long distance services), this would then allow the 170's that work the Cardiff to Nottingham services to strengthen the Stansted Airport's/other Nottingham's.
If there were more 180's available then I would agree they would be a good short term solution for XC but there are only 4 and by the time you train staff to operate them and make them more reliable it would not be much longer to wait for the extra 221/222's to arrive.
I think that as the entire 180 fleet is so small it is best to keep them together so I think Grand Central would be the best operator for them if they introduce more services or even strengthen existing ones to 10 carriages for part of the journey.

 

[greatvoyager]

As XC will be getting extra centre carriages for some 170's soon this should provide a bit more capacity for a short time and when the 221/222's are available the 221's could strengthen existing Voyager services and the 222's operating the Cardiff-Nottingham services (and maybe some other long distance services), this would then allow the 170's that work the Cardiff to Nottingham services to strengthen the Stansted Airport's/other Nottingham's.
If there were more 180's available then I would agree they would be a good short term solution for XC but there are only 4 and by the time you train staff to operate them and make them more reliable it would not be much longer to wait for the extra 221/222's to arrive.
I think that as the entire 180 fleet is so small it is best to keep them together so I think Grand Central would be the best operator for them if they introduce more services or even strengthen existing ones to 10 carriages for part of the journey.

Do any 180 units still get loaned to Northern?

 

[coradiafan2000]

Do any 180 units still get loaned to Northern?

I think some GC units are still sub leased to Northern to work a couple of times services per day. It's more of a convenience thing if I remember right. It's similar to how Northern used to loan a handful of 185s from TPE daily to work the Manchester to Barrow-in-Furness services. At least I think, I'm happy for someone more knowledgeable to clarify.

 

[hooverboy]

If Grand Central plan anymore expansion along diesel routes I bet they will take them up. They seem very committed to the class 180, just finishing a £9million refurb on their current 10 units.

I think GC would be more inclined to take the meridians.
bigger fleet,lower running costs.

chiltern would be a suitable candidate.
14 sets would be sufficient for a half hourly express from marylebone to birmingham

 

[coradiafan2000]

I think GC would be more inclined to take the meridians.
bigger fleet,lower running costs.

chiltern would be a suitable candidate.
14 sets would be sufficient for a half hourly express from marylebone to birmingham

I'd be happy with that.

 

[hooverboy]

I wonder if the 180s could be used as a standby option?

if XC snag the virgin 221's there's no need.

 

[hooverboy]

I'd be happy with that.

they might be somewhat unreliable, but the 180's are very nice trains inside.
quite a jump from the present mk3 mainline stock

I'd be hoping very much that if chiltern did take them, then alstom as OEM would do a decent service job in birmingham.

(ps ,never had a problem with alstom interiors or electric trains, they just really suck at diesel!)

 

[VT 390]

I think GC would be more inclined to take the meridians.
bigger fleet,lower running costs.

chiltern would be a suitable candidate.
14 sets would be sufficient for a half hourly express from marylebone to birmingham

If all 14 went to Chiltern I think it could work, but would not mean fewer seats on some Birmingham services, especially on the 68 loco hauled services as well as less standing room?

 

[hooverboy]

If all 14 went to Chiltern I think it could work, but would not mean fewer seats on some Birmingham services, especially on the 68 loco hauled services as well as less standing room?

I don't think so.

you'd be moving to a service at 30 minute intervals,so in effect it's an increase from 6 carriages per hour to 10.

 

[VT 390]

I don't think so.

you'd be moving to a service at 30 minute intervals,so in effect it's an increase from 6 carriages per hour to 10.

There is already 2tph though at approximately 30 minute intervals which means currently at peak times there is usually 1 loco hauled and 1 168 operated services to Birmingham which is 6 carriages for the loco hauled and about another 4 for the 168 (I don't known he exact numbers), so in peak hours you would probably not gain much but off peak would be 5 all day which would be good.
Perhaps the 180's could operated the Oxfords or the faster Birmingham services (the faster ones because they have fewer stops so having end doors would not make to much difference).

 

[greatvoyager]

they might be somewhat unreliable, but the 180's are very nice trains inside.
quite a jump from the present mk3 mainline stock

I'd be hoping very much that if chiltern did take them, then alstom as OEM would do a decent service job in birmingham.

(ps ,never had a problem with alstom interiors or electric trains, they just really suck at diesel!)

They are comfortable. Chiltern is an interesting option. Just out of interest is there any 125mph running on the routes out of Marylebone? If not, could this be looked at in the future?

 

[elliotjelliot]

Just another idea to add to the mix. Could the 4 ex HT 180s be leased out as package with 175's as they are both Alstom made trains, both designed for long distance services being similar in terms of interior and I assume there must be some technical commonality an operator could benefit from?

 

[hexagon789]

Is there any reason why the coupling cover isn't used anymore? Is it just for convenience?

I think the couplers are now fixed in the extended position