MML 2+4 HST trial

[Mitchell Hurd]

Hello everyone. I was searching Google on EMR HST withdrawals to see if there was anything to indicate when I should get a last trip on the "older" HST's (Paxman VP185-engined sets with the IC70 seats).
I then was looking at the front of the Modern Railways magazine, online, which had the Avanti Pendolino on the front - in small writing I spot 'MML 2+4 HST trial'.

Question is, do EMR really want to get these fitted with new doors considering the length time it's taken for Wabtec to fit new doors for GWR, XC and Scotrail?

I'm all for 2+4 HST's - I reckon Derby to Crewe would be fine. That route has some gaps of roughly 10 minutes (some a bit less) between stops.

Question is, which HST's would be shortened - I guess the LNER ones?

 

[Speed43125]

Is there any article online I could see? Scotrail ones are now getting up to standard in terms of availability, so probably, once slots open up this could be done with some success, especially as they won't be using any dawlish sea shower stock.
Is this just speculation, or has there been someone suggesting this from inside the company?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Is there any article online I could see? Scotrail ones are now getting up to standard in terms of availability, so probably, once slots open up this could be done with some success, especially as they won't be using any dawlish sea shower stock.
Is this just speculation, or has there been someone suggesting this from inside the company?

I'm not sure on either, sorry. It will be in the Modern Railways magazine which I'll be buying today. Give me up to 30 minutes and I'll say which page it's on.

 

[greatvoyager]

I'm not sure on either, sorry. It will be in the Modern Railways magazine which I'll be buying today. Give me up to 30 minutes and I'll say which page it's on.

I noticed the 2+4 HST on the cover of this month's issue when looking online, I thought was imagining it until I looked again and confirmed I saw correctly.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello everyone. I was searching Google on EMR HST withdrawals to see if there was anything to indicate when I should get a last trip on the "older" HST's (Paxman VP185-engined sets with the IC70 seats).
I then was looking at the front of the Modern Railways magazine, online, which had the Avanti Pendolino on the front - in small writing I spot 'MML 2+4 HST trial'.

Question is, do EMR really want to get these fitted with new doors considering the length time it's taken for Wabtec to fit new doors for GWR, XC and Scotrail?

I'm all for 2+4 HST's - I reckon Derby to Crewe would be fine. That route has some gaps of roughly 10 minutes (some a bit less) between stops.

Question is, which HST's would be shortened - I guess the LNER ones?

to help in your google search easiest thing to do to get an idea is to find the EMR pdf timetable 01 for the intercity route. Coulm headings tell you when services are supposed to be HSTs and accuracy is fairly good.

2+4 HSTs? Nottm - to Liverpool route would be nice!

 

[43096]

It is nothing to do with power doors, but is about EMR looking at contingencies - AIUI it was about assessing timings to match 222 (and indeed 180) performance.

It also busts the urban myth that a 2+4 HST isn’t allowed to do 125mph.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The 2+4 HST (shown on pages 18 / 19) was on the 11:31 from St. Pancras to Sheffield. It was the ex-Grand Central one.

Apparently Class 180's aren't cleared north of Sheffield so could be interesting!

 

[cactustwirly]

The 2+4 HST (shown on pages 18 / 19) was on the 11:31 from St. Pancras to Sheffield. It was the ex-Grand Central one.

Apparently Class 180's aren't cleared north of Sheffield so could be interesting!

The 11:31 to Sheffield isn't booked for a HST... I doubt the 2+4 HST, if it even exists has enough capacity to be a worthwhile replacement for a 222

They don't need to go north of Sheffield anyway

 

[greatvoyager]

It is nothing to do with power doors, but is about EMR looking at contingencies - AIUI it was about assessing timings to match 222 (and indeed 180) performance.

It also busts the urban myth that a 2+4 HST isn’t allowed to do 125mph.

Unless better brakes have been fitted? My understanding was that they were not allowed above 100mph because of a lack of brake force.

 

[AndyW33]

The 2+4 HST (shown on pages 18 / 19) was on the 11:31 from St. Pancras to Sheffield. It was the ex-Grand Central one.

Apparently Class 180's aren't cleared north of Sheffield so could be interesting!

Well, as one 180 reached Derby ECS from Hull via Sheffield earlier today, and a second ECS working is currently just north of Sheffield, they must be cleared at least between Swinton and Sheffield. In any case, the only reason MML trains go to Leeds at all is because HSTs have to get to and from Neville Hill for maintenance, and might as well run in service. 180s will be maintained at Etches Park and so don't need to access Neville Hill. The 222s very rarely visit Leeds - I've only ever come across one there once - when the Saturdays only York-St Pancras was diverted due to an incident in the Doncaster area.

 

[43096]

Unless better brakes have been fitted? My understanding was that they were not allowed above 100mph because of a lack of brake force.

Here we go........

Brakes were not modified for the trial.

 

[greatvoyager]

Here we go........

Brakes were not modified for the trial.

I'm just saying that was what I heard, I know it's not necessarily true. I also know the brakes won't have been modified considering everything, again just another thing I was wondering.

 

[fodphil]

HST have always been allowed to do 125, 3,4,5,6,7,8 etc car formations.
Even back to back power cars.
It's the TOCs that have decided to make them 100, be it for maintenance savings or not having to train drivers on high speed running, I do not know.

 

[Mogz]

2+4 HSTs? Nottm - to Liverpool route would be nice!

Liverpool- Norwich would be even better!

 

[greatvoyager]

HST have always been allowed to do 125, 3,4,5,6,7,8 etc car formations.
Even back to back power cars.
It's the TOCs that have decided to make them 100, be it for maintenance savings or not having to train drivers on high speed running, I do not know.

According to my friend's dad, who worked on HSTs during the days of InterCity, 125mph running wasn't permitted with anything below 2+5 formations because after 3 brake applications from 125mph the brakes on the power cars were starting to burn and become excessively worn.
Again, whether that's accurate is debatable.

 

[greatvoyager]

Liverpool- Norwich would be even better!

I'd like to see that.

 

[fodphil]

According to my friend's dad, who worked on HSTs during the days of InterCity, 125mph running wasn't permitted with anything below 2+5 formations because after 3 brake applications from 125mph the brakes on the power cars were starting to burn and become excessively worn.
Again, whether that's accurate is debatable.

I've driven them for 19 years and this speed change is only in the last couple of years and is TOC led.
Loco and coaches are a different thing altogether, HST are all disc brake and have 2 E70s for quicker application. That's why the could run at higher speeds.

 

[greatvoyager]

I've driven them for 19 years and this speed change is only in the last couple of years and is TOC led.
Loco and coaches are a different thing altogether, HST are all disc brake and have 2 E70s for quicker application. That's why the could run at higher speeds.

Okay thanks for confirming.

 

[Railperf]

I've driven them for 19 years and this speed change is only in the last couple of years and is TOC led.
Loco and coaches are a different thing altogether, HST are all disc brake and have 2 E70s for quicker application. That's why the could run at higher speeds.

That's what i understood too.

 

[greatvoyager]

That's what i understood too.

I probably misunderstood what I was told then.

 

[Railperf]

A healthy 2 + 4 HST would easily accelerate as quickly as an originally configured 222. I reckon a 2 +5 would probably do the job too. But in general i don't see the HSTs braking as hard as a 222 - even when running late.
Actually i recall a journey aboard an ex-GC 2+6 HST that achieved a Luton Airport to Bedford timing that was only 30 secs or slower than the Railway Performance Society's fastest recorded 222 timing for that section.
The HST could have achieved a better time with harder and later braking! But the driver was not surprisingly running early and took it easy with the station approach and stop.

 

[dgl]

Also I'm guessing a 222 has rheostatic brakes which aid in both braking (providing extra braking force, and the effects of brake fading) and reduced brake pad wear.

 

[fodphil]

Also I'm guessing a 222 has rheostatic brakes which aid in both braking (providing extra braking force, and the effects of brake fading) and reduced brake pad wear.

Bang on the money

 

[fodphil]

I've driven a 2+3 and you wouldnt really know much difference in braking, mind it was about 17 years ago, the acceleration was a joy to be hold

 

[43055]

The 11:31 to Sheffield isn't booked for a HST... I doubt the 2+4 HST, if it even exists has enough capacity to be a worthwhile replacement for a 222

They don't need to go north of Sheffield anyway

It only operated 0900 from Sheffield and 1131 return for 2 or 3 days. Looking at the picture it was formed of 2 standard and 2 first class coaches which is not brilliant.

 

[hexagon789]

It also busts the urban myth that a 2+4 HST isn’t allowed to do 125mph.

In original condition, that would be the case. Since the modifications in the early 1980s there has been no reason why a 2+5 or shorter can't run at 125mph. Indeed, two power cars back-to-back could run a 125mph as was explained by an engineer, though it's that long ago I first read that information and details on the braking system it's trying to locate it.

 

[DDB]

It only operated 0900 from Sheffield and 1131 return for 2 or 3 days. Looking at the picture it was formed of 2 standard and 2 first class coaches which is not brilliant.

If it was just for a performance trial maybe those 4 coaches were what they had spare in the depot at the time?

 

[greatvoyager]

In original condition, that would be the case. Since the modifications in the early 1980s there has been no reason why a 2+5 or shorter can't run at 125mph. Indeed, two power cars back-to-back could run a 125mph as was explained by an engineer, though it's that long ago I first read that information and details on the braking system it's trying to locate it.

So I wasn't just imagining all of that.

 

[hexagon789]

So I wasn't just imagining all of that.

Imagining that short sets were speed restricted? Not entirely but the idea that they are seems to have carried over long after the modifications to the braking system

 

[greatvoyager]

If it was just for a performance trial maybe those 4 coaches were what they had spare in the depot at the time?

I'd imagine it would be something along those lines.