Should GWR have gone for bi-mode 755 FLIRTs?

[Railperf]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...sets-see-diagrams-section-for-workings.145727

Much of the rolling stock in the Castle fleet is already owned by First Group and the leasing company is probably happy to get a few more years' fees out of the bits that they own. It's not like the ScotRail project, where there is indeed a contract with Angel Trains specifying that its trains will be used for a decade.

In hindsight, they should have gone for bi-mode 755's for these services. Cardiff to Taunton services would have been able to use electric power to Bristol Patchway ( I guess in future Temple Meads) ..and then the short section of diesel running to Taunton. Equal or better performance and probably much lower running costs. 755/3s would have been perfect for Cornwall - but 755/4s more future proof.

 

[59CosG95]

In hindsight, they should have gone for bi-mode 755's for these services. Cardiff to Taunton services would have been able to use electric power to Bristol Patchway ( I guess in future Temple Meads) ..and then the short section of diesel running to Taunton. Equal or better performance and probably much lower running costs. 755/3s would have been perfect for Cornwall - but 755/4s more future proof.

That's not to say that they won't in future...

 

[John R]

Cardiff to Taunton services would have been able to use electric power to Bristol Patchway ( I guess in future Temple Meads) ..and then the short section of diesel running to Taunton.

Not quite that short, and indeed longer than Cardiff to Temple Meads, let alone Patchway where the wires run out for the foreseeable future.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Not quite that short, and indeed longer than Cardiff to Temple Meads, let alone Patchway where the wires run out for the foreseeable future.

Cardiff to Patchway is just over 32 miles. Patchway to Taunton is just over 50 miles. Any bi-modes would therefore spend a lot longer on diesel.

The line from Bristol to Taunton is well set up for high speed running as it's pretty straight and flat with a 100mph linespeed plus a short stretch at 110mph between Uphill Junction and Highbridge & Burnham. The HST GTis are well set up to make the most of this. Any replacement needs to do likewise or run the risk of getting in the way of XC services.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In hindsight, they should have gone for bi-mode 755's for these services. Cardiff to Taunton services would have been able to use electric power to Bristol Patchway ( I guess in future Temple Meads) ..and then the short section of diesel running to Taunton. Equal or better performance and probably much lower running costs. 755/3s would have been perfect for Cornwall - but 755/4s more future proof.

There are only one or two diagrams that are actually captive to the Cardiff-Taunton end of the route. The rest are integrated with the Far West via through workings. Therefore youd be building a fleet that spends the vast majority of its life on diesel.

 

[jimm]

In hindsight, they should have gone for bi-mode 755's for these services. Cardiff to Taunton services would have been able to use electric power to Bristol Patchway ( I guess in future Temple Meads) ..and then the short section of diesel running to Taunton. Equal or better performance and probably much lower running costs. 755/3s would have been perfect for Cornwall - but 755/4s more future proof.

Is this some sort of Class 755 train different from the Class 755 trains being used in East Anglia that have not exactly been covering themselves in glory so far?

As for hindsight, the idea of using HSTs in this way largely came into the picture because of the issues over electrifying Thames Valley branches and Oxford, which led to more Turbos having to stay at Reading depot and reducing the number being sent west.

The HSTs are a stopgap, not some long-term solution, until the time a decision is made about future rolling stock for all the GWR local and inter-regional services in the West, whether that is as part of the expected direct award extension or a future franchise.

 

[Energy]

The HSTs are a stopgap, not some long-term solution, until the time a decision is made about future rolling stock for all the GWR local and inter-regional services in the West, whether that is as part of the expected direct award extension or a future franchise.

Agreed, I suspect we could see some new units in the next franchise

 

[43 302]

Agreed, I suspect we could see some new units in the next franchise

I highly doubt that seeing as the new franchise is less than three months away.

 

[John R]

And is quite likely to be another direct award for a shortish period, which would almost certainly preclude any decisions on new stock.

 

[Energy]

I highly doubt that seeing as the new franchise is less than three months away.

What? I said in the next franchise, not the current one...

 

[jimm]

And is quite likely to be another direct award for a shortish period, which would almost certainly preclude any decisions on new stock.

At least two years, and it could be more, depending on how talks have been going and any impact from the Williams Review.

GWR statement from November 2017:

At the same time, the DfT has announced it will exercise its option to extend the current Great Western Franchise for a year to April 2020, and that it intends to negotiate a further direct award for the GWR franchise for a duration of two years to April 2022, with an option to extend this for up to a further two years at the DfT’s discretion.

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-...s-to-dft-announcement-to-extend-gwr-franchise

The West rolling stock can really can't be kicked any further down the road than 2024, given how long in the tooth some of the 150/2s would be by then, all the 158s and Turbos would be 30+ and the HSTs knocking on for 50.

And it would probably make sense for something to be done about it sooner - perhaps with GWR acting as the DfT's agent for a procurement exercise for new trains, rather than there being a two-year wait into a franchise before anything new turns up.

 

[John R]

At lot has moved on in the rail industry in the last two years, so I don't think too much can be read into what is now intended. Having said that, I can imagine that a 2 year DA would be attractive to the DfT, as 1 year is really too short to do anything other than draw breath.

 

[Energy]

The West rolling stock can really can't be kicked any further down the road than 2024, given how long in the tooth some of the 150/2s would be by then, all the 158s and Turbos would be 30+ and the HSTs knocking on for 50.

I really hope the DfT would stop with direct awards, XC services are overcrowded while having no improvements due to the direct awards just telling them to keep it running for another year. GWR could be one of the best if it had another franchise so we can see the end of some trains, the 150s are getting too old, short HSTs should be a few year stop gap at most, the 158s and turbos are hitting 30 years old. Ordering new trains to replace these would be great and should really be done, seems like we will be waiting a few more years for even an order for new trains to replace these though...

 

[43 302]

What? I said in the next franchise, not the current one...

Yes. The next franchise starts in March. There is an option to extend for another two years but nothing had been done about it yet.

 

[43 302]

I really hope the DfT would stop with direct awards, XC services are overcrowded while having no improvements due to the direct awards just telling them to keep it running for another year. GWR could be one of the best if it had another franchise so we can see the end of some trains, the 150s are getting too old, short HSTs should be a few year stop gap at most, the 158s and turbos are hitting 30 years old. Ordering new trains to replace these would be great and should really be done, seems like we will be waiting a few more years for even an order for new trains to replace these though...

Although I love the HSTs, I do completely agree.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Yes. The next franchise starts in March. There is an option to extend for another two years but nothing had been done about it yet.

GWR is not a franchise beyond March. A direct award is a completely different vehicle. You only get a franchise after a franchise competition, or an extension to an existing franchise.

 

[Energy]

Yes. The next franchise starts in March. There is an option to extend for another two years but nothing had been done about it yet.

So then why couldn't they get new trains? They may have not announced it yet but it seems a direct award likely.

 

[43 302]

So then why couldn't they get new trains? They may have not announced it yet but it seems a direct award likely.

Nothing is announced. I think it is likely that the castle class HSTs will be around for about 5 years, maybe more if we're lucky (or unlucky, depending on your opinion). Then they will be replaced by god knows what.

 

[Railperf]

Cardiff to Patchway is just over 32 miles. Patchway to Taunton is just over 50 miles. Any bi-modes would therefore spend a lot longer on diesel.

The line from Bristol to Taunton is well set up for high speed running as it's pretty straight and flat with a 100mph linespeed plus a short stretch at 110mph between Uphill Junction and Highbridge & Burnham. The HST GTis are well set up to make the most of this. Any replacement needs to do likewise or run the risk of getting in the way of XC services.

The 2+4's are 'limited' to 100mph. I haven't seen more than 100mph - even when running late. The 110mph section is relatively short - and from discussions with others - the consensus seems to be it rarely gets exploited.

 

[Pete_uk]

Hitachi BMU's based on the 800's as replacements?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Is this some sort of Class 755 train different from the Class 755 trains being used in East Anglia that have not exactly been covering themselves in glory so far?

As for hindsight, the idea of using HSTs in this way largely came into the picture because of the issues over electrifying Thames Valley branches and Oxford, which led to more Turbos having to stay at Reading depot and reducing the number being sent west.

The HSTs are a stopgap, not some long-term solution, until the time a decision is made about future rolling stock for all the GWR local and inter-regional services in the West, whether that is as part of the expected direct award extension or a future franchise.

Might be quite good as the 755s will have got over the issues in here in Norwich so could well be a good option by the time GWR order them