Possible use for Class 350/2s

[bramling]

They're dual voltage (from build) though...

In the real world (not on forum / magazines etc), modifying rolling stock isn't so simple, takes time and funding, the sort of things that affects decisions...

I can tell you that collector shoes are only the tip of the iceberg.

I still reckon it would be worth betting a small sum that they will eventually end up on SWR. The fact that the numbers match up to ditch the 442s, they benefit dwell times by ditching end-door stock on some of the country’s busiest routes, similarity to the 450s, and allowing a few extra units for growth, seems too much of a pull factor to me. Having said that the Portsmouth line users would likely kick off again!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't think of anything more suitable to Pompey directs than 350/1s (or /2s with that interior).

 

[markymark2000]

Could GTR make use of them for the West London Line services. This then frees up 377s for capacity improvements on the main Southern network? GTR already have Desiros in the fleet (Class 700 and 717s).

 

[swt_passenger]

Could GTR make use of them for the West London Line services. This then frees up 377s for capacity improvements on the main Southern network? GTR already have Desiros in the fleet (Class 700 and 707s).

Assuming third rail shoes are fitted, then yes, but they could also potentially be used almost anywhere on the wider DC network. (707s are used by SWR, I guess that’s a typo?) I don’t think there’s much commonality with 700s though, that probably isn’t really a major factor.

 

[markymark2000]

Assuming third rail shoes are fitted, then yes, but they could also potentially be used almost anywhere on the wider DC network. (707s are used by SWR, I guess that’s a typo?) I don’t think there’s much commonality with 700s though, that probably isn’t really a major factor.

Ok, I have got really confused somewhere. I thought the /2s were fitted with shoes already as I know some 350s were dual voltage. The 707s I thought ran Moorgate services. What I meant was 717 clearly.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ok, I have got really confused somewhere. I thought the /2s were fitted with shoes already as I know some 350s were dual voltage. The 707s I thought ran Moorgate services. What I meant was 717 clearly.

It’s the original batch of 350/1s that have shoe gear fitted. But as is regularly posted, it’s not really a difficult modification.

 

[markymark2000]

It’s the original batch of 350/1s that have shoe gear fitted. But as is regularly posted, it’s not really a difficult modification.

Dual voltage is probably a good use for them so then 3rd rail only stock can be used in other areas where only 3rd rail is used. These being put in as extra capacity on 3rd rail only routes would be good but then less people benefit from newer trains. Whether these go on the West London Line and a few 377s then move on to increase capacity at SouthEastern or they go on suburban routes to replace some 455s. Whatever it is, more people benefit as we only have finate dual voltage trains. It's important that we utilise them in the best way possible.

 

[Bevan Price]

Could they go to Scotland, to start replacing 318s and 320s ?

 

[37057]

But as is regularly posted, it’s not really a difficult modification.

What makes you think it's not a difficult modification?

They're built with the ability to be converted but there's a lot to do to get them dual / DC.

 

[Energy]

Could they go to Scotland, to start replacing 318s and 320s ?

More 385s would make more sense

 

[adamedwards]

350s were all built as dual voltage and then un-needed bits removed, I thought. The whole point being to make sure the asset value is maximised if transferred to another operator. In this case SWR is a logical move and the 442s can go back to being the speculative stock to end all speculation as has been a longstanding theme of this forum! (The 442s cannnot be converted easily to overhead!)

 

[greatvoyager]

More 385s would make more sense

Maybe, but on the other hand, would 350/2s be able to work in multiple with the 380 units?

 

[greatvoyager]

Could they go to Scotland, to start replacing 318s and 320s ?

They may do, depending on whether they would replace 3-car trains with 4-car ones (unless there's a way to remove the 4th coach and the unit to still work)

 

[43096]

350s were all built as dual voltage and then un-needed bits removed, I thought. The whole point being to make sure the asset value is maximised if transferred to another operator. In this case SWR is a logical move and the 442s can go back to being the speculative stock to end all speculation as has been a longstanding theme of this forum! (The 442s cannnot be converted easily to overhead!)

No: only the 350/1s were dual voltage from new. All the others have only had 25kV AC from new, but could be converted if needed.

 

[gingertom]

Maybe, but on the other hand, would 350/2s be able to work in multiple with the 380 units?

or maybe take a couple of dozen to dedicate to operating Glasgow Central-Ayr, allowing the 380s to strengthen other Inverclyde routes.

 

[37057]

No: only the 350/1s were dual voltage from new. All the others have only had 25kV AC from new, but could be converted if needed.

Indeed, the AC fleets have a certain amount of wiring and plumbing installed but then need traction converters, auxiliary converters and heater modules modifying to accept the change in current collection. New equipment such as the shoe gear, high-speed circuit breaker, line filter and brake resistors also need installing. The control circuits and components in the internal cabinets and cab then require modification and so does the software. All this then needs commissioning and approval. Vehicles become heavier too...

Obviously not impossible, but definitely something that can deem the idea unplausable.

 

[greatvoyager]

or maybe take a couple of dozen to dedicate to operating Glasgow Central-Ayr, allowing the 380s to strengthen other Inverclyde routes.

That would also be a viable alternative.

 

[gingertom]

That would also be a viable alternative.

technically feasible? Yes. Viable? Perhaps not. Scotrail would end up with an overabundance of 4 car units which would make diagramming difficult. Not impossible though. I suppose some of the 4-car 380s could have a car taken out but that would be wasteful.
Would I be correct in saying the 350/2s are 110mph capable? Might be possible to trim a couple of minutes off the schedule if the linespeed can be cleared for the higher speed. Could also be useful on the Carstairs, Lanark, North Berwick and Dunbar services where there are already >100mph sections.

 

[greatvoyager]

technically feasible? Yes. Viable? Perhaps not. Scotrail would end up with an overabundance of 4 car units which would make diagramming difficult. Not impossible though. I suppose some of the 4-car 380s could have a car taken out but that would be wasteful.
Would I be correct in saying the 350/2s are 110mph capable? Might be possible to trim a couple of minutes off the schedule if the linespeed can be cleared for the higher speed. Could also be useful on the Carstairs, Lanark, North Berwick and Dunbar services where there are already >100mph sections.

I believe they were modified so that they could work more effectively in multiple with the other 350 subclasses which work at 110mph.

 

[gingertom]

I believe they were modified so that they could work more effectively in multiple with the other 350 subclasses which work at 110mph.

there is a point which would probably override all the above reasoning. The E&G is the flagship route with brand new 100mph 385s. Do you think ScotGov would be happy for Glasgow-Ayr to have 110mph units? Yes the 350/2s could be deployed on the E&G, if Alex Hynes should find places and money to upgrade the linespeed to be of use, but I can't see Transport Scotland being terribly happy at the prospect of brand new trains being replaced by 11 year old trains. The move would be politically unacceptable.
On the downside, a 20 mile stretch of sustained 110mph running is required to trim one minute off the running time- where are the opportunities to achieve such benefits?

 

[greatvoyager]

there is a point which would probably override all the above reasoning. The E&G is the flagship route with brand new 100mph 385s. Do you think ScotGov would be happy for Glasgow-Ayr to have 110mph units? Yes the 350/2s could be deployed on the E&G, if Alex Hynes should find places and money to upgrade the linespeed to be of use, but I can't see Transport Scotland being terribly happy at the prospect of brand new trains being replaced by 11 year old trains. The move would be politically unacceptable.
On the downside, a 20 mile stretch of sustained 110mph running is required to trim one minute off the running time- where are the opportunities to achieve such benefits?

I was only suggesting ScotRailnas they already use desiro units. If it's not viable, fair enough.

 

[gingertom]

I was only suggesting ScotRailnas they already use desiro units. If it's not viable, fair enough.

Technically they'd be a good fit, minimum of traction conversion training required, spares holding similar, fitter training minimal. Politically there's issues. Financially? If the numbers stack up anything goes, as usual it is bean counters who make the decisions.

 

[gingertom]

Technically they'd be a good fit, minimum of traction conversion training required, spares holding similar, fitter training minimal. Politically there's issues. Financially? If the numbers stack up anything goes, as usual it is bean counters who make the decisions.

also the 380 fleet size was based on the Glasgow Airport link being delivered. As this was scrapped the 380 fleet is larger than it really needed to be for today's operation. It has allowed for additional services and strengthening peak time services. I'd envisage the taking on some (or all) of the 350/2 fleet being the enabler of a downwards cascade with the aim of retiring the 318 and 320 fleet. However, there's still quite some life left in the 318s and 320s so the 350/2 are probably a few years too early.

 

[The Ham]

I believe they were modified so that they could work more effectively in multiple with the other 350 subclasses which work at 110mph.

Hence my suggestion up thread of their use by XC on the ECML and into Glasgow and Edinburgh to allow the strengthening of the rest of their fleet by the released Voyagers.

It would provide them with a noticeable uplift in capacity along the routes served by the 350's as well as allowing more diagrams to be strengthened.

Even if you only create 4 spare units they could benefit quite a few extra diagrams (between 8 and 12 or more) as either you release a 4 or 5 coach unit:

A 4 coach unit released would enable it to run with another 4 coach unit, however chances are the increase in capacity would be better suited on a diagram currently run by a 5 coach unit. As such that's at least 2 diagrams which benefit.

However it gets better still if you release a 5 coach unit as that unit can replace a 4 coach unit, which then in turn could pair with another 4 coach unit and repeat the same thing as above. In doing so that's at least 3 diagrams which would benefit.

The reason that it's at least 2 or 3 diagrams benefiting is that one unit could be turned back before the outer edges of the network to provide extra capacity to more services than if it ran the whole length of the route.

Given there's the potential for it to provide some extra capacity on 12 out of about 55 diagrams (there's 58 Voyagers and 5 HST's units but there'll be some spares and some doubling up already which reduces this number from the total number of units available) if it released 4 units, then that's going to ease pressure on capacity quite nicely.

The reason for picking 4 units is that there's 1tph which runs to Edinburgh with half of these going to Glasgow (assuming that the 221's carry on running to Newcastle with the 350's overlapping with them between there and Leeds/York) then the round trip time is 3 or 5 hours, this would require 4 units (assuming no pairs of units run any services).

Whilst this would only require 20/21 units if every service ran to Glasgow and was run as an 8 coach train with 2 or 3 spare units. As such there's still scope for additional TOC's to use the remaining 16/17 units.

[WISFUL_THINKING] That is unless someone were to electrify through to Birmingham, then XC could use the whole fleet.
[/WISFUL_THINKING]

Given that ScottRail have similar it could be convenient for them to maintain the units for XC (so as to limit the extra costs to XC for their maintenance).

 

[TrainTube]

I'd love them to be used with SWR, either on Reading services or on the Waterloo-Woking/Guildfords. It would mean people on the Reading line are happy and would cover for stock out of service. I wonder if their traction would keep the same sound, or a higher pitch like on the 444s & 450s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd love them to be used with SWR, either on Reading services or on the Waterloo-Woking/Guildfords. It would mean people on the Reading line are happy and would cover for stock out of service. I wonder if their traction would keep the same sound, or a higher pitch like on the 444s & 450s.

All Desiros sound exactly the same to me.

Of course a rational thing to do would be to reseat the 350/2s to 2+2 then swap them out for the 350/1s. Of course their ownership mucks with that.

 

[TrainTube]

All Desiros sound exactly the same to me.

Of course a rational thing to do would be to reseat the 350/2s to 2+2 then swap them out for the 350/1s. Of course their ownership mucks with that.

That however would mean less seats, and I don't know what Abellio are like but certain operators do all they can to cram in seats, plus less seats wouldn't go down well with the Dft (nothing much does tbh). I personally would be in favour of it, I'd hate to be on an LNR service between London and Crewe or Birmingham and Liverpool and find out my train is a 350/1.


And yes, the Desiro's funnily enough sound a bit different. The 444/450s sound different to all the ones under the wire. You can tell if you listen when each depart.

 

[D365]

And yes, the Desiro's funnily enough sound a bit different. The 444/450s sound different to all the ones under the wire. You can tell if you listen when each depart.

Best example of this is the Class 700/717; they have a notably different sound on AC overhead, compared to DC third rail.

 

[JonathanH]

Hence my suggestion up thread of their use by XC on the ECML and into Glasgow and Edinburgh to allow the strengthening of the rest of their fleet by the released

There are six trains an hour between York and Newcastle and four through to Edinburgh. Only Cross Country (and LNER) at the end of the day for through to Glasgow. I don't think you would overlap between York and Newcastle as that would be overkill / not be capacity.

If people have to change to get from Sheffield (and further south) to Glasgow, you arguably may as well remove the Cross Country service entirely North of York.

The only virtue of the suggestion to use 350/2 (or indeed 365s) would perhaps be that it could be an empty train at the interchange point.

Would there be sufficient capacity at York to ensure same or cross platform interchange?

 

[greatvoyager]

There are six trains an hour between York and Newcastle and four through to Edinburgh. Only Cross Country (and LNER) at the end of the day for through to Glasgow. I don't think you would overlap between York and Newcastle as that would be overkill / not be capacity.

If people have to change to get from Sheffield (and further south) to Glasgow, you arguably may as well remove the Cross Country service entirely North of York.

The only virtue of the suggestion to use 350/2 (or indeed 365s) would perhaps be that it could be an empty train at the interchange point.

Would there be sufficient capacity at York to ensure same or cross platform interchange?

It would be very tight on finding a path. It would be nice to have certain parts of the network with additional trains, but wouldn't it be then a little too much capacity?