Permitted routes York>Bristol

[Nicholas43]

Advice please. Son has return ticket Bristol to York. Wishes to return with stopover in Warrington. Routeing guide says maps MN+PM. Warrington is on both maps. But National Rail Enquiries won't give an itinerary. It will give itineraries via Winslow oops Wilmslow.

 

[JB_B]

Going via Warrington looks fine to me but, as you've found, journey planners won't validate that route. I'm not sure why that is.

 

[kieron]

There are two stations in Warrington. PM shows routes from Warrington Bank Quay. MN shows a route from Warrington Central. Since you're changing maps there, you (or rather, your son) will have to use both.

Asking to travel via Warrington Central should bring up some valid itineraries.

 

[jfollows]

It will give itineraries via Winslow.

Wilmslow?

 

[JB_B]

There are two stations in Warrington. PM shows routes from Warrington Bank Quay. MN shows a route from Warrington Central. Since you're changing maps there, you (or rather, your son) will have to use both.

Asking to travel via Warrington Central should bring up some valid itineraries.

I've found that via Birchwood is enough to get a valid route from NRE ( dep 10:34, arr 16:06 - £123.70 off peak single.)

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/BRI/YRK/tomorrow/1015/dep?via=Birchwood

It's not obvious why via Bank Quay and Central doesn't bring back the same result-

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...p?via=Warrington_Bank_Quay,Warrington_Central


- it may be that slower routes (like this one) aren't explored sufficiently deeply - it's quite a bit quicker continuing via Earlestown which is off-route.

 

[Nicholas43]

Thanks for replies and apologies for my muddle over Wilmslow.
BUT ... Map MN is (also) York to Warrington Group. For an enquiry York to Warrington stations, National Rail Enquiries does give itineraries York to Bank Quay via Earlestown.

 

[JB_B]

Thanks for replies and apologies for my muddle over Wilmslow.
BUT ... Map MN is (also) York to Warrington Group. For an enquiry York to Warrington stations, National Rail Enquiries does give itineraries York to Bank Quay via Earlestown.

The route via Earlestown isn't mapped. It's permitted because it's the shortest route (from York to Warrington Bank Quay).

 

[Nicholas43]

Really? I don't know how to check the official distances. But just looking at a map, Manchester to Warrington Central is pretty much straight line, and via Earlestown is a big loop to the north.

 

[30907]

Really? I don't know how to check the official distances. But just looking at a map, Manchester to Warrington Central is pretty much straight line, and via Earlestown is a big loop to the north.

At a quick guess, the route from York is measured via Victoria, your straight line runs from Oxford Road/Piccadilly.

 

[JB_B]

Really? I don't know how to check the official distances. But just looking at a map, Manchester to Warrington Central is pretty much straight line, and via Earlestown is a big loop to the north.

Sorry - I could have been clearer - I'm saying the shortest route by rail from York to Warrington Bank Quay includes Earlestown.

 

[JB_B]

At a quick guess, the route from York is measured via Victoria, your straight line runs from Oxford Road/Piccadilly.

That's right - the shortest route goes via Victoria.

 

[Nicholas43]

So I'd be hopelessly naive to imagine that map MN shows, diagrammatically, all the permitted routes from York to Warrington, which include all, ahem, reasonable routes from any Manchester station to either Warrington station?

 

[JB_B]

So I'd be hopelessly naive to imagine that map MN shows, diagrammatically, all the permitted routes from York to Warrington, which include all, ahem, reasonable routes from any Manchester station to either Warrington station?

The routes that you can trace on Map MN from York to Warrington routeing point group are the mapped routes.

The mapped routes are a subset of the permitted routes which also include the shortest route (and routes within 3m of the shortest.) Direct trains would also permitted but I don't think there are any.

I suspect this isn't the only case where the quickest or most obvious route isn't mapped and is only permitted because of the shortest route rule.

The reasonableness or otherwise of a route tells you nothing about whether it's permitted.

 

[Nicholas43]

I think that all trains from York to Manchester call first at Victoria. Some continue to Oxford Road and Piccadilly. According to Trainline (who I guess may be wrong?) it's 16 miles from Victoria to Earlestown, 5 miles Earlestown to Bank Quay, and 16 miles Victoria to Warrington Central.

 

[kieron]

If you have a ticket to Warrington Stations, you are allowed to use the shortest route to Warrington Central, or the shortest route to Warrington Bank Quay, entirely at your choice. While you could walk from one to the other, the shortest route is calculated on the assumption that you will only use trains to get from one station to another.

This means that the shortest route to Warrington Bank Quay is the one via Newton-le-Willows, and that it appears as a valid route on web sites.

There are a few early morning trains between Manchester and York which don't go through Manchester Victoria. This doesn't matter as the shortest route to Warrington Bank Quay is via Manchester Victoria anyway.

 

[Nicholas43]

Son's ticket was not in the event inspected, so it didn't matter. I am however still totally confused. Manchester Group to Warrington Group is map NR. Victoria via Earlestown to Bank Quay is definitely permitted. Map NR and map MN both show only a symbolic single straight line between a square meaning 'any Manchester station' and a square meaning 'either Warrington station'. As a naive punter, I expect that to mean that both 'common sense' routes are permitted, and that the rough correspondence between the symbolic line on the maps, and the railway on the ground from Oxford Road to Warrington Central, is irrelevant.

 

[alistairlees]

Son's ticket was not in the event inspected, so it didn't matter. I am however still totally confused. Manchester Group to Warrington Group is map NR. Victoria via Earlestown to Bank Quay is definitely permitted. Map NR and map MN both show only a symbolic single straight line between a square meaning 'any Manchester station' and a square meaning 'either Warrington station'. As a naive punter, I expect that to mean that both 'common sense' routes are permitted, and that the rough correspondence between the symbolic line on the maps, and the railway on the ground from Oxford Road to Warrington Central, is irrelevant.

You have a ticket from Bristol to York though. The map for Warrington to Manchester is irrelevant.

 

[Nicholas43]

I looked at map NR only in the (foolish) hope that it would throw light on map MN.

 

[yorkie]

The issue here is that the Rail Delivery Group have an omission with the mapped routes from York to Bristol.

It's clearly a mistake.

No-one is going to object to you taking this route, but until RDG fix the issue, you cannot get itineraries on a York to Bristol ticket via a route that is not a permitted route for York to Bristol.

But what you can't do is look at mapped routes for other journeys; it's only relevant to the origin and destination that you have (with the exception of where tickets are routed via a specific place, or are valid via London, in which case you can then look at the permitted routes from origin to that intermediate point, then from there to destination).

 

[Nicholas43]

The issue here is that the Rail Delivery Group have an omission with the mapped routes from York to Bristol. It's clearly a mistake...

Thanks Yorkie. What I still don't understand is this: for my son's (return) journey York to Bristol, the prescribed maps are MN + PM. MN includes a square which means 'all Manchester stations', and a square which means 'both Warrington stations'. PM includes a square which means 'both Warrington stations'. What is it that stops journey planners working out that they can give an itinerary York>Earlestown>Bank Quay>Crewe>Bristol?

 

[alistairlees]

Thanks Yorkie. What I still don't understand is this: for my son's (return) journey York to Bristol, the prescribed maps are MN + PM. MN includes a square which means 'all Manchester stations', and a square which means 'both Warrington stations'. PM includes a square which means 'both Warrington stations'. What is it that stops journey planners working out that they can give an itinerary York>Earlestown>Bank Quay>Crewe>Bristol?

Earlestown Group is on map PM. It's not on map MN though. A routeing point (or routeing point group) must be on both maps in order for a valid route to be traced via it at the join. It's not, so it can't be.

 

[yorkie]

Earlestown Group is on map PM. It's not on map MN though. A routeing point (or routeing point group) must be on both maps in order for a valid route to be traced via it at the join. It's not, so it can't be.

Indeed.

A good example of this is York to Leeds. If any map shows a direct link between them, without any routeing points, that includes both the route via Church Fenton, and also the longer route via Harrogate, but does not include the route via Castleford (which is frequently used for diversions), this is because Castleford is a routeing point (whereas Harrogate is not).

If there is no mapped route via Earlestown, then you will only get itineraries via Earlestown under the through trains or shortest route rules.

 

[Nicholas43]

Earlestown Group is on map PM. It's not on map MN though...

York to Warrington Group is also map MN, which, as you say, does not (explicitly) include Earlestown Group. But journey planners happily offer York to Bank Quay via Earlestown. So I don't understand how journey planners can 'know' that Earlestown Group is (implicitly) included on map MN if you're just going from York to Warrington, but decide it isn't if you might continue to Bristol.

 

[alistairlees]

Journey planners are computers. They do not consider anything to be implicit; that is a human trait. To a computer a thing is either Yes or No (I simplify a little here).

As has been explained before, York to Warrington BQ is permitted via Earlestown as it's within three miles of the shortest route and / or it has direct services; it is not permitted by virtue of map MN, but those other methods (shortest route by rail / direct trains) are the other ways of calculating a valid route.

When considering a journey from York to Bristol TM though, going via Earlestown is not the shortest route, nor are there direct trains. And it is not a mapped route either. So travel is not permitted that way.

 

[yorkie]

York to Warrington Group is also map MN, which, as you say, does not (explicitly) include Earlestown Group. But journey planners happily offer York to Bank Quay via Earlestown. So I don't understand how journey planners can 'know' that Earlestown Group is (implicitly) included on map MN if you're just going from York to Warrington, but decide it isn't if you might continue to Bristol.

For a York to Warrington Bank Quay journey, journey planners do not need to look at the Routeing Guide maps if the journey is via Leeds, Manchester and Earlestown.

As the maps are not consulted, it doesn't matter what is or isn't on those maps

You only need to consult the Routeing Guide if it's not either a direct train or within 3 miles of the shortest route.

If you are (or if anyone else reading this is) interested in learning more about how to determine permitted routes you are more than welcome to join us at a free fares workshop (soft drinks & nibbles will be provided)!

 

[Starmill]

Do not make the mistake of thinking that the Routing Guide is recursive. It is not - and this is quite deliberate.

For example, Leeds to Retford is valid via York or via Wakefield and then Doncaster. Leeds to Newark is the same. As is Leeds to Grantham, Leeds to Peterborough or Leeds to London. These are all mapped routes which pass through Doncaster but a ticket from Leeds only to Doncaster does not have permitted routes via York. This was revealed to be intentional by internal documents.

 

[JB_B]

Son's ticket was not in the event inspected, so it didn't matter. I am however still totally confused. Manchester Group to Warrington Group is map NR. Victoria via Earlestown to Bank Quay is definitely permitted.

York to Warrington via Earlestown is permitted but only because of the shortest route rule not because of the maps. This tells you nothing about York to Bristol (where the shortest routes pass through the Birmingham area.)

Map NR and map MN both show only a symbolic single straight line between a square meaning 'any Manchester station' and a square meaning 'either Warrington station'. As a naive punter, I expect that to mean that both 'common sense' routes are permitted, and that the rough correspondence between the symbolic line on the maps, and the railway on the ground from Oxford Road to Warrington Central, is irrelevant.

There is a precise correspondence between each link on the routeing point map and the physical ('railway on the ground') which has nothing to do with 'common sense'. This might not be immediately obvious from the routeing guide documentation - at least it wasn't obvious to me.

Each link on a routeing guide map represents all the routes between the linked routeing points which do not pass through another routeing point. Earlestown GP is a routeing point so that means the Manchester-Warrington link can only represent the route via Birchwood.

If a Manchester-Earlestown link was added to map MN then York to Bristol via Earlestown would be permitted. The routeing guide changes quite frequently - see this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-routeing-guide-update.99396/page-37#post-4340991 - as @yorkie suggests, the missing link might just be an oversight and it could be corrected.

 

[Nicholas43]

Each link on a routeing guide map represents all the routes between the linked routeing points which do not pass through another routeing point. Earlestown GP is a routeing point so that means the Manchester-Warrington link can only represent the route via Birchwood.

Ah, thanks, that was (the main part of) what I did not understand. Have I now got it right that, irrespective of any maps, if a journey planner can find route(s) from any station A to any station B that do not break any general rules (eg the rule against 'doubling back'), then the shortest of those routes, and other other routes that are up to 3 miles longer, will always be permitted?

 

[JB_B]

Ah, thanks, that was (the main part of) what I did not understand. Have I now got it right that, irrespective of any maps, if a journey planner can find route(s) from any station A to any station B that do not break any general rules (eg the rule against 'doubling back'), then the shortest of those routes, and other other routes that are up to 3 miles longer, will always be permitted?

Yes - that's right. The shortest route (or within +3m) rule is a separate way of establishing permitted routes which applies regardless of what is shown on the routeing guide maps.

As far as I can see there's no reason to worry about doubling back when using the shortest route rule. The only formal 'no doubling back' rule applies when tracing a route on a map.