Proposals to split Northern into two franchises: How would you do it?

[Haydn1971]

3 levels would otherwise be silly.

To be fair, we have three levels now, with the profitable express services, northerns mix of services and then the metros/light rail services in the bigger urban areas... there has been plenty of discussion about shifting routes like the Barnsley-Huddersfield line to tram-train, but for me, dropping routes like the Harrogate stopper onto a tram-train service, filter off onto Burley Road, the Hedgerow then rejoin heavy rail to Micklefield or Knottingly would be a real step change for the third tier services... we need to stop using old ideas and pick up the best of what other nations do, the regions are gone, let’s not resurrect them for nostalgia

 

[Andyh82]

Calder Valley would go to the east side and nothing would run west of Manchester, terminating in the bays at Victoria.

Hope Valley stoppers would go to the West side as they coordinate with other west side services at the Manchester end, but don’t so the same at the Sheffield end.

Blackpool, Carlisle, Morecambe from Leeds would all go with the east side as per Northern Spirit days.

TPE would reduce to every 15 mins York to Manchester, with 2ph to Liverpool and 2ph to Manchester Airport. All would run with the maximum number of carriages that the platforms can accommodate.

I know they won’t like it, but Leeds to Hull would either be self contained no longer running west of Leeds, or would pass to Northern and run to Manchester via the Calder Valley as the service with the fewest stops.

 

[Glenn1969]

If Calder Valley has to terminate in Manchester it should go via Ordsall to Piccadilly for better inter city connections than are available at Victoria

4tph on the TPE route is insufficient even with longer trains unless you want insufferable overcrowding- in peaks you get that now even with 5 tph

 

[EllieAquitrain]

Their parent seems to run intercity and local services all the way from the Swiss border to Scilly without a problem.

I wasn't aware services ran through the Channel Tunnel from Cornwall

 

[Harvey B]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...franchises-from-march-31.197313/#post-4351212

It is a bit early for April fools jokes!

if it really is happening I wonder how the split will work, last time the eastern franchise ran all the services between east and west ie
Leeds - Morecambe
York - Blackpool
Leeds - Manchester
Carlisle - Newcastle

Also could be some interesting discussions about how the class 331 and 195 get split up between the franchises

Wouldn't splitting the franchise up create problems when staffing the trains (I.E blackpool crews wpuld be employed by one franchise and Leeds crews employed by the other franchise) Some York to blackpool services have blackpool crews too

 

[xotGD]

I wasn't aware services ran through the Channel Tunnel from Cornwall

Predictive text is not my friend!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I don't think there are any Northern-run through services to the area from the south, it's a fairly well-separated operation (although I'm happy to be corrected).

You're correct - to the extent that if one wished to (for instance) get the train between Whitby and York and only use Northern services, it would take over ten hours!

06:33 Whitby [WTB] >>> Middlesbrough [MBR] 07:56
08:35 Middlesbrough [MBR] >>> Newcastle [NCL] 09:53
10:23 Newcastle [NCL] >>> Carlisle [CAR] 11:44
13:40 Carlisle [CAR] >>> Leeds [LDS] 16:05
16:18 Leeds [LDS] >>> York [YRK] 16:53

Pity there are no Northern services to Scarborough from York, elsewise the point would be even more stark - and would likely mean 12 hours to travel only slightly more miles!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't splitting the franchise up create problems when staffing the trains (I.E blackpool crews wpuld be employed by one franchise and Leeds crews employed by the other franchise) Some York to blackpool services have blackpool crews too

You'd operate the service from one end (like Liverpool-Norwich say) or as a joint service. I'm not sure how this one used to be done in RRNW/RRNE days, but that.

As one minor aside, I think Lancaster-Morecambe/Heysham should be split off and the Leeds services terminate at Lancaster as a pure regular interval shuttle using something like a Class 150. That particular bit is better operated as part of the Lakes and Furness operation from Barrow than from Leeds and is very much a through service of operational convenience that almost nobody will use as such.

 

[TheWalrus]

Does anyone see and possibility or benefit of nationalising the Northern franchise? Seems to work for East Coast?

 

[Glenn1969]

No. Because the subsidy would be used as an excuse to starve it of investment

 

[js1000]

No. Because the subsidy would be used as an excuse to starve it of investment

I don't think it needs investment.

The immediate concern is the need for a realistic timetable that provides punctuality and resilience within the parameters of the existing available infrastructure. There is no excuse for not getting that right. The DfT and Government will not be able to hide behind the veil of "it's a basket case".

 

[PTR 444]

I would split the northern franchise into separate northwest and northeast franchise but name them as LancsRail and YorksRail respectively to better represent the geographical location of the services. TPE would also be split between these two franchises which would mean the following services would go to the two franchises as listed below:

Northwest franchise (LancsRail)

• All TPE services from Manchester Airport to Scotland, as well as the Liverpool - Glasgow service.
• All services on the Hope Valley Line except for Liverpool - Nottingham which will remain with EMR.
• All Manchester - Leeds services on the Calder Valley Line, including Blackpool - York.
• All other existing northern services in Lancashire, Cheshire and Cumbria.

Northeast franchise (YorksRail)

• All services on the Manchester - Huddersfield -Leeds Line, including the TPE Liverpool/Manc Airport - northeast services.
• All services between Leeds and Lancaster as well as those on the Settle - Carlisle Line.
• Newcastle - Carlisle
• Leeds - Nottingham
• All other existing Northern services in Yorkshire, Durham and Northumberland.

 

[geoffk]

Much of the current problems are due to fragmentation of services and resources between different companies.
You can't fix that with more fragmentation

Agree. How would I do it? I wouldn't. I think this is completely the wrong response to Northern's difficulties. More fragmentation is the last thing we need and would just reinforce the different terms and conditions for train crews. The effect would be particularly bad for east-west routes like Calder Valley and of course we had this split before 2004. I would rather see Northern and TPE merged!

 

[randyrippley]

One answer may be to take a step back and recreate Regional Railways, covering all non-intercity services in the Midlands and North. No competition. Centralisation would be the key. NW, NE, TPE, East Midlands and any West Midlands routes that aren't Birmingham centred. One integrated commuter and regional system from Carlisle to Ipswich

 

[Clip]

That works fine on a linear network based upon one main line but how do you split up Northern (and TPE) into WCML/ MML/ ECML services? What is Newcastle - Liverpool? Leeds - Chester? Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport? Or do we assess current services based on their pre-1923 route mileage?

You split them somewhere - remember , as you always say in other threads , we dont need trains going from everywhere to everywhere and as you advocate changing in places then why not now?

Could the crew/class of train changes actually make the services more reliable? Who knows

 

[Skymonster]

Seems like someone has already decided what the northwestern side should become and given it a new name.

Northern 150145 15:00 Stalybridge to Manchester Victoria was showing the following on the information screens...





[Welcome aboard this First Capital Connect service...]

 

[thenorthern]

North West and North East like before might work the current franchise is too big and covers too many PTE areas.

 

[Meerkat]

Tyne-Tees-Trains - it’s so far from Lancashire it really should be locally managed.
Lancashire Trains, centred on Preston including Barrow and Windermere to Airport
Blackpool-York goes to TPE or LancTrain
Merseyrail, Manchester, Yorkshire take over their own local networks.

 

[Greybeard33]

You're correct - to the extent that if one wished to (for instance) get the train between Whitby and York and only use Northern services, it would take over ten hours!

06:33 Whitby [WTB] >>> Middlesbrough [MBR] 07:56
08:35 Middlesbrough [MBR] >>> Newcastle [NCL] 09:53
10:23 Newcastle [NCL] >>> Carlisle [CAR] 11:44
13:40 Carlisle [CAR] >>> Leeds [LDS] 16:05
16:18 Leeds [LDS] >>> York [YRK] 16:53

Pity there are no Northern services to Scarborough from York, elsewise the point would be even more stark - and would likely mean 12 hours to travel only slightly more miles!

But you can travel all the way from Whitby to Scarborough using only Northern:
Whitby (d.0633) > Middlesbrough > Newcastle > Carlisle > Leeds (d.1621) > Doncaster (a.1706 d.1726) > Scarborough (a.1940). 13h7m total (FastJP planner is your friend).

Not a bad way to extract maximum sightseeing value from a Northern "anywhere on our network" complimentary travel voucher!

 

[Killingworth]

Just as we can see a glimmer of light with new train introductions and crew training, a possibilty of sorting out more problems with timetables in May. Management attention is likely to be diverted to reorganisation that's likely to result in at least as much disruption as a change of franchise holder. All the while Network Rail projects continue to run behind schedule including many that would materially improve reliabilty.

Whatever will be, will be. Rushed into action, any action, it seems by politicians just like the original privatisation.

I hope my fears are unfounded and it will be a resounding success.

Bring back tne North Eastern Railway. But please, whatever befalls, can the Hope Valley Sunday service operate as it appears in the timetable, and for the other 6 days as well? That's no cancellations and within 2 minutes of time. Seems totally impossible at present. And with enough coaches so all can get aboard and usually find a seat, particularly on Saturdays.

I sense that desire may find a few echoes around the north!

 

[Harvey B]

But you can travel all the way from Whitby to Scarborough using only Northern:
Whitby (d.0633) > Middlesbrough > Newcastle > Carlisle > Leeds (d.1621) > Doncaster (a.1706 d.1726) > Scarborough (a.1940). 13h7m total (FastJP planner is your friend).

Not a bad way to extract maximum sightseeing value from a Northern "anywhere on our network" complimentary travel voucher!

Or
Whitby to middlesborough
Middlesborough to york [TPE]
York to Hull
Hull to Scarborough
thats another way of going from whitby to scarboroygh using (mostly) Northern services

 

[NoMorePacers]

Or
Whitby to middlesborough
Middlesborough to york [TPE]
York to Hull
Hull to Scarborough
thats another way of going from whitby to scarboroygh using (mostly) Northern services

But that isn't only using Northern though.

 

[cactustwirly]

One answer may be to take a step back and recreate Regional Railways, covering all non-intercity services in the Midlands and North. No competition. Centralisation would be the key. NW, NE, TPE, East Midlands and any West Midlands routes that aren't Birmingham centred. One integrated commuter and regional system from Carlisle to Ipswich

Then you create a huge monolith that eats subsidy, and will literally get no investment (like Northern, but for all regional services)

 

[xotGD]

Then you create a huge monolith that eats subsidy, and will literally get no investment (like Northern, but for all regional services)

One person's 'huge monolith' is the next person's integrated network run to provide a public service. From my perspective, which I freely admit is coloured by my politics, this is way, way better than the chaotic, fragmented dog's breakfast those of us in the north of England currently have to endure.

 

[cactustwirly]

One person's 'huge monolith' is the next person's integrated network run to provide a public service. From my perspective, which I freely admit is coloured by my politics, this is way, way better than the chaotic, fragmented dog's breakfast those of us in the north of England currently have to endure.

It's a "dog's breakfast" because it's the Cinderella franchise that no one wants, but by merging everything together you're just ruining the regional services in the East Midlands, Anglia etc.

No northern should be split and merged with LNER/Avanti.
Like EMR, GWR etc, those regional services are a hell of a lot better than Northern, the cross subsidy from the Intercity services would allow more investment and a higher quality service.

 

[DDB]

It's a "dog's breakfast" because it's the Cinderella franchise that no one wants, but by merging everything together you're just ruining the regional services in the East Midlands, Anglia etc.

No northern should be split and merged with LNER/Avanti.
Like EMR, GWR etc, those regional services are a hell of a lot better than Northern, the cross subsidy from the Intercity services would allow more investment and a higher quality service.

I've always felt that the better franchises have a mix of long distance (to London normally) and local services as this "hides the subsidy" to some extent while encouraging better links from the local services into long distance and allows the franchise to respond better to lesuire demands by using the Long distance stock at the weekends to cover weekend holiday traffic, festivals Christmas's markets etc. See for example the difference between the extra Lincoln Christmas market services EMT is able to put on compared to Northern.

 

[Energy]

Seems like someone has already decided what the northwestern side should become and given it a new name.

Northern 150145 15:00 Stalybridge to Manchester Victoria was showing the following on the information screens...

View attachment 72141

View attachment 72140

[Welcome aboard this First Capital Connect service...]

If it was a 319 it would make more sense, but a 150? Has someone programmed the wrong thing in?

 

[xotGD]

It's a "dog's breakfast" because it's the Cinderella franchise that no one wants, but by merging everything together you're just ruining the regional services in the East Midlands, Anglia etc.

No northern should be split and merged with LNER/Avanti.
Like EMR, GWR etc, those regional services are a hell of a lot better than Northern, the cross subsidy from the Intercity services would allow more investment and a higher quality service.

Looks like we are in agreement that local and intercity services should have a common operator. Where we differ is that you want each region or set of routes operated separately as a franchise whereas I want a single national operation.

 

[Energy]

Looks like we are in agreement that local and intercity services should have a common operator.

Agreed, nobody really wants an entirely regional franchise, they take lots of money if you want modern rolling stock while not bringing in too much in comparison to an intercity operator

 

[TheWalrus]

Agreed, nobody really wants an entirely regional franchise, they take lots of money if you want modern rolling stock while not bringing in too much in comparison to an intercity operator

So do you think we should be suggesting certain Northern-operated routes to transfer to LNER, EMR and AWC? With the rest being kept separate as a smaller franchise or merged with TPE?