Should TPE expand if Northern gets split?

[js1000]

Don't see how TPE can operate any additional services when the service on existing routes at present is shoddy and, like Northern, TPE is in trouble financially. First have written off that franchise with a projected overall £100m loss by 2023. They've stated that they are willing to grin and bear it - possibly in the hope that passenger numbers do grow exponentially with new rolling stock and probably not spooking the DfT considering the West Coast rail partnership that has just commenced. But no doubt some at TPE will be taking the opposing view and hitting the panic button. Wouldn't be surprised if TPE is next after Northern is reorganised by the government. Rail in the north at the moment is a confused mess.

 

[Meerkat]

The current franchises in Northern England (TPE & Northern Fail) are a complete mess. There needs to be streamlining of operations and removal of competition, which is confusing to passengers, with the longer distance services run by more competent operators

Why does there need to be a removal of competition?
TPE have an interest in prioritising their more local passengers. Those passengers would be a side issue for ECML/WCML operators, who would prioritise their London passengers.

 

[daodao]

Why does there need to be a removal of competition?
TPE have an interest in prioritising their more local passengers. Those passengers would be a side issue for ECML/WCML operators, who would prioritise their London passengers.

Rail services in the North of England are a money pit, requiring vast government resources. They need to be pruned, simplified and run in the most cost-effective manner, without the added complication of competition. I have only proposed that services where there is considerable overlap with the WCML (NW England-Preston-Scotland) and the ECML (Liverpool-York-NE England) are transferred to these respective operators, in the interest of more efficient operation and reduced government subsidy. TPE needs to be removed as a separate franchise. Northern Fail can't be completely abolished as some regional rail services need to be retained in the North of England that are not purely local and thus able to be run within the remit of a single PTE.

 

[Greybeard33]

Northern Fail can't be completely abolished as some regional rail services need to be retained in the North of England that are not purely local and thus able to be run within the remit of a single PTE.

A city region Combined Authority could run services outside its boundary. Merseyrail already runs services to Chester and the Welsh Government, via TfW, runs services that are entirely within England, e.g. Crewe to Chester and Shrewsbury. Regional franchises run services well beyond their geographical boundaries, e.g. EMR Liverpool to Norwich.

Appropriate mechanisms would be needed to ensure that the interests of stakeholders outwith the city region boundary were represented.

 

[Trainfan2019]

No. They cannot run what they have right now, let alone take on extra services.

I agree there. Plus, any ex northern routes will no doubt be amended by TPE to serve Manchester airport.

 

[Meerkat]

Rail services in the North of England are a money pit, requiring vast government resources. They need to be pruned, simplified and run in the most cost-effective manner, without the added complication of competition. I have only proposed that services where there is considerable overlap with the WCML (NW England-Preston-Scotland) and the ECML (Liverpool-York-NE England) are transferred to these respective operators, in the interest of more efficient operation and reduced government subsidy. TPE needs to be removed as a separate franchise. Northern Fail can't be completely abolished as some regional rail services need to be retained in the North of England that are not purely local and thus able to be run within the remit of a single PTE.

Why would a lack of compensation reduce the subsidy, unless you are happy they use that monopoly to rinse passengers....?
By more efficient main line operation I assume you mean higher fares and fewer services.

 

[Gareth]

The old FNW/ATN split was better, in my opinion.

I still like the 'one franchise per London terminal'; a bit more like the East Midlands franchise. Things like TPE and XC could be joint run ventures.

 

[B&I]

All of this is so much deckchairs on the Titanic until.central government pays to provide the infrastructure and rolling stock the north needs to run a service which will actually attract and carry enough passengers to be economically viable. That needs to be the first priority, rather than fiddling around with admin structures. Realistically, it is unlikely to happen until England stops being run for the benefit of a single region, with the rest of the country being treated as a series of colonies whose resources have now been completely stripped.

Once that has been done, and in particular once enough infrastructure has been built to enable a proper split between local and long distance trains, I'd suggest breaking Northern's ludicrously large area into local networks based on the large conurbations and residual rural areas (Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds/Bradford, Sheffield, Hull/York, Newcastle/Middlesbrough and Cumbria), with overlaps and joint services where appropriate.

This leaves the option of placing long distance services with either 1 or 2 regional operators for the north, or with whoever runs the East and West Coast main lines.

 

[Senex]

Realistically, it is unlikely to happen until England stops being run for the benefit of a single region, with the rest of the country being treated as a series of colonies whose resources have now been completely stripped.

That's certainly what needs to happen, but the centralisation of rule goes back many centuries in England (and in due course in the UK) and the increasing move of business and commercial headquarters and their activities towards London at least a century now, so that even if there were any real prospect of the present political mob (both government and opposition) really doing anything to bring about serious change, there's no likelihood at all of anything happening fast. Meanwhile, funding for the provincial infrastructure, particularly in the half-dozen maximum dozen major cities, needs to be found much more urgently and decisions have to be taken. Having things sitting waiting on the ministers' desks for years on end should be unacceptable in any state with any pretensions to being well-run.

This leaves the option of placing long distance services with either 1 or 2 regional operators for the north, or with whoever runs the East and West Coast main lines.

The proper place for Manchester/Liverpool–Scotland services has always seemed to me to be with the West Coast franchise, so that they can be planned and integrated with the London and Birmingham to Scotland services. I'm much less sure of what might by right for the rest of the Trans-Pennine empire, but I'm inclined to think that Liverpool-Leeds-Edinburgh should go with the East Coast franchise. I'm not sure whether it's then best to lump the Redcar and Hull services in there too, or put then with Liverpool-Sheffield-Cleethorpes and find another home for those two groups.