Is there a better way to handle late-night set-down only restrictions?

[MKB]

Last Monday, I departed EUS on time at 23:30.

We arrived into MKC at 00:06 and waited 20 minutes until our booked departure time of 00:26.

From then on, the train is set-down only, so when I got off in RUG at 00:47 (13 minutes early), the train didn't hang around.

What puzzled me is:

(1) Why is the train not set-down only at MKC? There's more likely to be demand for COV-BHM than from MKC to points north at this time, yet COV pick-up is not allowed.

(2) Where set-down only restrictions are in place for reasons of allowing a train to complete its journey early, rather than to mitigate against over-crowding, why deny travel to those who want it? Given the complexities of fares and routeing that we are meant to get our heads round, surely the travelling public can be regarded as intelligent enough to understand an annotation to the timetable that, instead of "set-down only", says "train may depart be up to <n> minutes early".

 

[yorkie]

If it's cancelled they don't want to worry about arranging taxis from places like Rugby perhaps?

The 2330 from King's Cross is the same, but is set down only everywhere (it doesn't call at Stevenage).

 

[royaloak]

, surely the travelling public can be regarded as intelligent enough to understand an annotation to the timetable that, instead of "set-down only", says "train may depart be up to <n> minutes early".

Early departure is not permitted, and you are having a laugh about some peoples levels of intelligence!

 

[Greenback]

Last Monday, I departed EUS on time at 23:30.

We arrived into MKC at 00:06 and waited 20 minutes until our booked departure time of 00:26.

From then on, the train is set-down only, so when I got off in RUG at 00:47 (13 minutes early), the train didn't hang around.

What puzzled me is:

(1) Why is the train not set-down only at MKC? There's more likely to be demand for COV-BHM than from MKC to points north at this time, yet COV pick-up is not allowed.

(2) Where set-down only restrictions are in place for reasons of allowing a train to complete its journey early, rather than to mitigate against over-crowding, why deny travel to those who want it? Given the complexities of fares and routeing that we are meant to get our heads round, surely the travelling public can be regarded as intelligent enough to understand an annotation to the timetable that, instead of "set-down only", says "train may depart be up to <n> minutes early".

I've never really understood why a train should be set down only unless it's to ease overcrowding on long distance journeys. Even then, it's difficult to enforce, as has been shown by the various threads on here! Still, I can't imagine any overcrowding on the late night services it mostly seems to apply to these days.

I doubt it's so that the trian can complete it's jounrey early, that's probably more a result of extra slack in the timetable to account for late night route diversions due to engineering work. Anyway, why are some of these trains set down only?

 

[Deerfold]

Early departure is not permitted, and you are having a laugh about some peoples levels of intelligence!

According the working timetable perhaps, but having set-down only does allow this to be varied without producing new public ones - I've left Stevenage several minutes early on a late Sunday set-down only train (before an FCC train that was in the timetable as leaving first) - I'm guessing that on some Sundays the extra time was needed for engineering works but they didn't bother putting codes and extra bits in the timetable for the sake of a handful of people wanting to go Stevenage to KGX at that time.

 

[AlexS]

I do believe it's because this particular train is timed for diesel haulage via Nuneaton if necessary? I've arrived well over an hour early on it at Wolverhampton before.

 

[transportphoto]

Little Off Topic...

If say a person boards a Set-Down Train at XXX, would they be treated as if they were using a ticket from XXX from ZXZ (as the last pick up was at ZXZ) - being sold a new ticket from ZXZ for the journey they wish to travel?

Also, am I right when I say - "You can not split tickets at a station where the service you travel is set down only"?

 

[yorkie]

Little Off Topic...

If say a person boards a Set-Down Train at XXX, would they be treated as if they were using a ticket from XXX from ZXZ (as the last pick up was at ZXZ) - being sold a new ticket from ZXZ for the journey they wish to travel?

The question of whether someone boarding at a set-down only station is valid on a ticket that is valid from the previous station for picking passengers up caused quite a stir last time round. I would say the only logical answer (and I'm told ATOC agrees) is that you can be prevented from boarding, but if you are not, then a ticket that is valid from the previous stop available for picking passengers up is valid. The question then of whether, if such a ticket is not held, you should be issued an excess or not is probably debatable.

It's a can of worms.

Also, am I right when I say - "You can not split tickets at a station where the service you travel is set down only"?

This is an over-simplification; you are not talking about combining a season and non-season I assume? If so then we have already established that a ticket from a set down only station is not valid, so that answers the question. If you are talking about combining a season and non-season the train does not need to call so it's irrelevant whether it's set down or pick up only.

 

[transportphoto]

The question of whether someone boarding at a set-down only station is valid on a ticket that is valid from the previous station for picking passengers up caused quite a stir last time round. I would say the only logical answer (and I'm told ATOC agrees) is that you can be prevented from boarding, but if you are not, then a ticket that is valid from the previous stop available for picking passengers up is valid. The question then of whether, if such a ticket is not held, you should be issued an excess or not is probably debatable.

It's a can of worms.




This is an over-simplification; you are not talking about combining a season and non-season I assume? If so then we have already established that a ticket from a set down only station is not valid, so that answers the question. If you are talking about combining a season and non-season the train does not need to call so it's irrelevant whether it's set down or pick up only.

ok thanks yorkie.

 

[MKB]

Early departure is not permitted...

On the contrary, early departure happens frequently on set-down only stops: witness the 13 minutes early the train I was on left Rugby.

 

[royaloak]

Yes I know early departures are permitted on set down only services, I try to leave early on all of them , I was on about early departures on set down and pick up stops where you said to put in the timetable that the train may leave up to X minutes early.

 

[dk1]

The 23.30 Liverpool Street to Norwich used to be 'set down only' & it was lovely. Then somebody had the stupid idea of changing things. Now we normally wait time at Colchester only to be delayed by engineering work at Diss!! You are lucky to pick up anyone at Mannigtree, Stowmarket or Diss you just upset all the punters from London who want to get home. Oh & on Fridays & Saturdays we also have to suffer the P*ss heads who are a pain in the backside after a night out in Ipswich, arghhhh.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The question of whether someone boarding at a set-down only station is valid on a ticket that is valid from the previous station for picking passengers up caused quite a stir last time round. I would say the only logical answer (and I'm told ATOC agrees) is that you can be prevented from boarding, but if you are not, then a ticket that is valid from the previous stop available for picking passengers up is valid. The question then of whether, if such a ticket is not held, you should be issued an excess or not is probably debatable.

It's a can of worms.

I wonder if holding an All Line Rover would result in a lot of head scratching in these circumstances?!


There is also the other side of this debate, namely getting off a train at a pick up only stop....; would a vigilant member of platform staff insist on you getting back on again?

 

[clagmonster]

The 'ask Lisa' facility on the National Rail website gives the following:
"You asked:
pick up only
Lisa says:
Some train journeys stop at stations to 'pick up' or 'set down' only at stations on the route. This usually happens on long distance journeys at suburban stations, heading towards or away from large cities.

This makes more seats available for long distance journeys, encourages passengers travelling on shorter journeys to use alternative (but sometimes slower) trains and ensures a more comfortable journey for all passengers.

By stopping to 'pick up only', passengers at that station are given additional journey opportunities, but reduces the number of passengers using quicker trains for local journeys.

By stopping to 'set down only', the reverse applies and allows passengers who are travelling on the long distance journey to connect with local services.

If you board a train at a station which is designated as 'set down only', you may be treated as having joined the train without a valid ticket. You may then be required to buy a ticket between the last 'pick-up station' that the train called at and the next station that your ticket would be valid from. Where no break of journey is allowed on your ticket, a new ticket may be required.

If you intend to leave a train at a station which is shown as pick up only, you may discover that the train only stops to pick up passengers if passengers are on the platform - you may find that the train doesn't stop. If this happens, you will need to buy a ticket to the next station at which the train stops."
So in the case of a set down only train, if you got on at that station you could be excessed. What would happen if you held a valid ticket through from the previous pick up station I don't know. However, with a pick up only station you could quite legitamately get off. I don't know whether this is published elsewhere.

There has also been mention of splitting tickets at set down only or pick up only stations. The Conditions of carriage state:
"19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train
without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire
journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the
tickets was valid.
For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket
(excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

The relevent part is part b, which merely states that the train must call at the station where you swap tickets, not that it must call to both pick up and set down. I think in this case, it would be quite easy to board a train at station A with a combination of tickets, say from A to B and B to C and see that the train to C calls at B without realising that it stops at B to set down only. Similarly, many of the online journey planners if you put the through journey from A to C in will show the call at B as if it were a normal station stop.

As for the point of the late night trains which stop to set down only, I think it is so that the station facilities can be locked up after the previous train has left so that only the alighting passengers have to leave the station before it is locked for the night. From the passengers viewpoint, I can understand the argument that it is nice to arrive at your destination early, but you would surely plan to arrive at the advertised time. There are lots of cases where people would like the extra late night train home, for example I would like the 23:30 Kings Cross-Leeds to pick up at Doncaster.

 

[scrapy]

The advantix timetable enquiry doesn't state when a train is pick up only. If I look up the last weekday train from Tamworth to Manchester Picc it says 23.15, however according to the Virgin timetable this stops to set down only. Where would a passenger stand if they had been told or had a print out, in good faith by a conductor that this was the last train, and they were not able to board?

 

[jon0844]

Can't the industry sort things out to make things abundantly clear?

Stop having 'you may' written for almost everything. That implies that nobody really knows for sure, or that it comes down discretion or the wind direction. It pretty much makes the whole answer from National Rail meaningless. This is why you get arguments where someone has been told one thing and is now being told another. Funny how you're told something vague in advance, but when it comes to the penalty fare or the selling of a full-price ticket, it's an open-and-shut case (against you, obviously).

All we need is a simple 'yes' or 'no' to questions to make it clear. Then at least you can argue the case, or seek change if you think such a decision or policy is wrong. At the moment, everything is seemingly done at random (well, not for the benefit of the passenger) and would only ever be clarified if people sought for things like this to be tested in court.

And we all know that if you ever tried to take on the likes of ATOC, they'd just cave in before it reached court. The good-old 'goodwill gesture' get-out.