Should TPE expand if Northern gets split?

[Prestige15]

After seeing the government are concdiering splitting Northern between North west and North East on previous threads and there has been some discussions about cross pennine sorta service (York-Blackpool, Leeds - Chester etc) which got me thinking.

At this moment this split up is unofficial but if it did, Should TPE take over Northern's East - West routes (Chester - Leeds for example) allowing Northwestern Railway and Northeastern railway (made up name) to focus within those reigons? or am i missing something?

One company on the western side, One on the eastern side and one intercity type running in between....And probably more confusions to passengers

 

[daodao]

After seeing the government are concdiering splitting Northern between North west and North East on previous threads and there has been some discussions about cross pennine sorta service (York-Blackpool, Leeds - Chester etc) which got me thinking.

At this moment this split up is unofficial but if it did, Should TPE take over Northern's East - West routes (Chester - Leeds for example) allowing Northwestern Railway and Northeastern railway (made up name) to focus within those reigons? or am i missing something?

One company on the western side, One on the eastern side and one intercity type running in between....And probably more confusions to passengers

A better solution would to be create a single franchise for much of central Northern England, but to split off bits on the periphery. I suggest that:

• all NW England-Scotland services are transferred to the West Coast franchise.
• all services to Worksop/Scunthorpe/Cleethorpes/Lincoln are run by the East Midlands franchise, apart from trains from King's Cross to Lincoln, which would be run by the East Coast franchise, and some of which should be extended to Cleethorpes.
• all services via the Hope Valley line (fast and slow) and from Buxton (2 tph, calling only at Stockport and Piccadilly after Hazel Grove) are run by the East Midlands franchise, with a dmu depot at Buxton for the local services. EMR would run the local service M/c - Guide Bridge -New Mills Central - Sheffield, with the local service M/c-Reddish-Rose Hill retained by Northern for now but converted to Metrolink in the medium term.
• East Midlands franchise should take over the Nottingham-Leeds service
  
• all diesel services from Chester are run by the Wales and Borders franchise, apart from trains from Euston, which would be run by the West Coast franchise
• There should be a separate franchise for NE England, responsible for all local services in this area, including to Carlisle.
• The express service from NE England to Liverpool is transferred to the East Coast franchise, to be operated by Inter-City style trains every 30 minutes calling at Lime Street, Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton and then alternately to Middlesbrough and Newcastle. These trains would not need to extend further north as there are alternative EC services from Newcastle to Edinburgh and beyond.

All other routes would be operated by Northern as second-class only services, including ex-TPE services from M/c Airport and Piccadilly via Stalybridge.

In the medium to long term, other local operators could take over selected routes, in particular:

• M/c-Reddish-Rose Hill, M/c-Glossop and M/c-Warrington Central converted to Metrolink
• Squires Gate-Kirkham taken over by Blackpool trams
• Kirkby-Skelmersdale and Hunt's Cross-Warrington Central taken over by Merseyrail, with the section Skelmersdale-Wigan Wallgate retained by Northern. There could be 8 tph to Hunt's Cross, with alternate trains extended to Gateacre and Warrington Central.
• A separate WY micro-franchise for electric services from Leeds/Bradford to Ilkley/Skipton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, TPE should not expand. If anything they should prune the extremities so they can operate the core reliably and with appropriate capacity. The extension to Redcar, for instance, beggars belief given that they can't reliably operate what they have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

• all services via the Hope Valley line (fast and slow) and from Buxton (2 tph, calling only at Stockport and Piccadilly after Hazel Grove) are run by the East Midlands franchise, with a dmu depot at Buxton for the local services. EMR would run the local service M/c - Guide Bridge -New Mills Central - Sheffield, with the local service M/c-Reddish-Rose Hill retained by Northern for now but converted to Metrolink in the medium term.

There is something in much of what you say, but this is a stupid idea. These are basically "outersuburban" commuter and leisure services for Manchester, and so management of them needs to remain in the North West. You could I suppose create a North West management unit of EMR, but why have that complexity?

 

[Glenn1969]

I live in the area and think TPE should take over the York- Blackpool service and the Leeds - Chester service. I would run the former from Scarborough and the latter from Hull and stop them only at Bradford, Halifax and Hebden Bridge or Todmorden and Rochdale (Chester service only) (not sure if you can get to the Tod Curve from the Leeds direction)

I would also like to see a Leeds- Manchester express stopping at Dewsbury, Brighouse, Sowerby Bridge and Rochdale only but am not sure if such a service could be pathed

 

[JonathanH]

The extension to Redcar, for instance, beggars belief given that they can't reliably operate what they have.

No it doesn't - it is the only reliable way of running longer trains to Middlesbrough due to infrastructure constraints.

 

[daodao]

There is something in much of what you say, but this is a stupid idea. These are basically "outersuburban" commuter and leisure services for Manchester, and so management of them needs to remain in the North West. You could I suppose create a North West management unit of EMR, but why have that complexity?

Buxton, Whaley Bridge and New Mills, and the Hope Valley line itself, are in the East Midlands. My proposals would mean that in the longer-term all remaining services staying with the Northern Rail franchise on the south side of Manchester would be electric, and Northern would only be operating via Huyton into Liverpool.

Further to my previous proposal, it might also be possible to split out all the Cumbrian local services into a separate franchise: Carlisle-Barrow-Lancaster, Carlisle-Skipton-Leeds, Morecambe-Lancaster-Skipton-Leeds, plus the Windermere-Oxenholme branch if it is not going to be electrified.

 

[NoMorePacers]

No. They cannot run what they have right now, let alone take on extra services.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Realistically what we want is a much greater emphasis on a single Northern franchise with multiple units (e.g. to include Hull stuff, and Manchester to Nottingham, and Manchester to Cleethorpes), with other stuff currently TPE that operates as an ‘Intercity’ operation (the loco-hauled, the Liverpool to Newcastle/Scotland and the Liverpool/Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh via Preston) with an Intercity operator. The most likely candidate for the latter is to make it part of Cross Country - drivers at Scarborough, York, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Manchester, Preston etc.

 

[Senex]

Buxton, Whaley Bridge and New Mills, and the Hope Valley line itself, are in the East Midlands. My proposals would mean that in the longer-term all remaining services staying with the Northern Rail franchise on the south side of Manchester would be electric, and Northern would only be operating via Huyton into Liverpool.

Further to my previous proposal, it might also be possible to split out all the Cumbrian local services into a separate franchise: Carlisle-Barrow-Lancaster, Carlisle-Skipton-Leeds, Morecambe-Lancaster-Skipton-Leeds, plus the Windermere-Oxenholme branch if it is not going to be electrified.

I'm not sure that people from Buxton, Whaley Bridge, and New Mills would define themselves as being from the East Midlands, and both economically and culturally I think these towns look towards Stockport and Manchester rather than Sheffield and Derby. The county of Derbyshire is certainly in the government's East Midlands Region, but its north-west corner has always looked north and west rather than south and east because of the geography.

 

[Senex]

Realistically what we want is a much greater emphasis on a single Northern franchise with multiple units (e.g. to include Hull stuff, and Manchester to Nottingham, and Manchester to Cleethorpes), with other stuff currently TPE that operates as an ‘Intercity’ operation (the loco-hauled, the Liverpool to Newcastle/Scotland and the Liverpool/Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh via Preston) with an Intercity operator. The most likely candidate for the latter is to make it part of Cross Country - drivers at Scarborough, York, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Manchester, Preston etc.

Not only drivers in the right places, but sharing many miles of route in common: Wigan-Carlisle-Glasgow/Edinburgh; Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh. It would make a lot of sense, but (a) given the poor quality of the XC operation under Arriva, would one want more of them, (b) is there not a very strong case indeed for putting the WCML trains into the West Coast franchise, and (c) might there not be at least an aguable case for putting Liverpool-Leeds-Edinburgh into the East Coast franchise?

 

[Chester1]

If (and its a big if) the Northern franchise is split up then it would make sense to transfer Chester - Leeds and run it with some of the 22 x 185s due to go off lease.

If TPE are given Liverpool - Nottingham and the rumours from TPE staff on the forum that Mark Vs will be used then I would use that as an opportunity to remap services.

Something like:

Unchanged:

Manchester Airport - Scotland
Liverpool - Glasgow
Liverpool - Scarborough
Liverpool - Edinburgh
Manchester Airport - Newcastle
Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes (double 185s)

Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough and Hull (185s splitting and joining at Leeds)
Chester - Leeds (single 185s)
Blackpool - York (single 185s)
Liverpool - Nottingham (Mark Vs)

This would mean a reduction from 5 to 4 express services but maintaining all stations links with Manchester. Switching Chester - Leeds to TPE and using 185s would increase the role of the service as a semi fast alternative.

 

[Glenn1969]

The 5th Express could be my new Leeds- Manchester via Dewsbury, Brighouse, Sowerby Bridge and Rochdale service unless you think that would be unviable. I know some in the local user group want quicker trains from Brighouse and Sowerby Bridge to Leeds and Manchester

 

[Senex]

The 5th Express could be my new Leeds- Manchester via Dewsbury, Brighouse, Sowerby Bridge and Rochdale service unless you think that would be unviable. I know some in the local user group want quicker trains from Brighouse and Sowerby Bridge to Leeds and Manchester

Can you really call a train making four intermediate stops between Leeds and Manchester an express? Isn't it a semi-fast, like the old Midland-line services that used to call at all principal stations between St Pancras and Derby/Nottingham?

 

[Glenn1969]

I suppose so but that makes the current service that stops at Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Stalybridge also semi fast

 

[Andyh82]

The 5th Express could be my new Leeds- Manchester via Dewsbury, Brighouse, Sowerby Bridge and Rochdale service unless you think that would be unviable. I know some in the local user group want quicker trains from Brighouse and Sowerby Bridge to Leeds and Manchester

This service is currently the all stations stopper, so how who you serve the stations that you are omitting? Batley, Morley, Mirfield, Mytholmroyd, Walsden

 

[Glenn1969]

The semi fast service would be additional to the current stopper

 

[Senex]

I suppose so but that makes the current service that stops at Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Stalybridge also semi fast

Yes, I think those Stalybridge and Dewsbury calls (along with Lea Green/Newton-le-Willows and Garforth) are indeed calls for a semi-fast, not for a would-be inter-city train linking Liverpool with Manchester, Leeds, and Newcastle in a best-possible time. And if speeds there weren't so low I wouldn 't have all the Newcastle trains calling at Huddersfield either. York's a rather odd case: not a particularly large city, but with a station that does trade out of all proportion to the size of the place (consistently more passengers than Newcastle, for example).

 

[Glenn1969]

So does Huddersfield which has more passengers a year than any station in West Yorkshire except Leeds so merits a call from all or most trains

 

[PTR 444]

Rather than expanding TPE, I think it would be more worthwhile if the operations were integrated into the split Northern franchises. In this scenario, the Huddersfield routes ought to go to the new Northeast franchise since the bulk of their route mileage is in the east, while the Northwest franchise should inherit the WCML services. The Hope Valley service could go to the Northwest franchise although it would equally make sense if that and the stopping service transferred to East Midlands Railway.

 

[tbtc]

TPE taking over some Calder Valley services (e.g. the Blackpool one) seems a backward step IMHO - we have too many corridors with multiple operators - adding TPE to the mix through Bradford Interchange/ Halifax would just complicate things more (and lead to uneven gaps in service at other stations).

I would also like to see a Leeds- Manchester express stopping at Dewsbury, Brighouse, Sowerby Bridge and Rochdale only but am not sure if such a service could be pathed

If you are going to run a "fast" Calder Valley service (stopping only at Rochdale between Sowerby Bridge and Manchester) then surely you'd have it serving Bradford and Halifax (which lack a "fast" Manchester service), rather than providing Dewsbury with another Manchester service (which would be slower than the existing TPE Dewsbury - Manchester services)?

The only benefit to this would be Brighouse (but presumably it'd still be slower than Brighouse passengers changing at Huddersfield onto the frequent TPE services to Manchester.

Not only drivers in the right places, but sharing many miles of route in common: Wigan-Carlisle-Glasgow/Edinburgh; Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh. It would make a lot of sense, but (a) given the poor quality of the XC operation under Arriva, would one want more of them, (b) is there not a very strong case indeed for putting the WCML trains into the West Coast franchise, and (c) might there not be at least an aguable case for putting Liverpool-Leeds-Edinburgh into the East Coast franchise?

I'd be fine with that.

Unthinkable a generation ago but now that LNER and TPE run the same trains from Edinburgh to York, it makes a lot more sense.

The WCML service is pretty much independent from the rest of TPE nowadays, so could easily be moved, which leaves only the hourly Hope Valley service (which could be part of EMR or Northern - it has much more overlap with those franchises than it does with the other bits of TPE.

Crayonista time - I'm wondering whether having an EMR base at Manchester and taking over the various diesel services east/ south east of Manchester (Rose Hill/ New Mills/ Buxton) which would mean one TOC running everything through the Hope Valley. There's nothing "Trans-Pennine" about a service from Manchester to Glasgow (or Blackpool etc in days past), and nothing very "Welsh" about stoppers from Crewe to Shrewsbury... plus the Corby - St Pancras service isn't particularly "East Midland" so I don't think passengers will be too bothered about the geographic description on the side of their DMU.

 

[daodao]

…………...

I'd be fine with that. Unthinkable a generation ago but now that LNER and TPE run the same trains from Edinburgh to York, it makes a lot more sense. The WCML service is pretty much independent from the rest of TPE nowadays, so could easily be moved, which leaves only the hourly Hope Valley service (which could be part of EMR or Northern - it has much more overlap with those franchises than it does with the other bits of TPE.

Crayonista time - I'm wondering whether having an EMR base at Manchester and taking over the various diesel services east/ south east of Manchester (Rose Hill/ New Mills/ Buxton) which would mean one TOC running everything through the Hope Valley. There's nothing "Trans-Pennine" about a service from Manchester to Glasgow (or Blackpool etc in days past), and nothing very "Welsh" about stoppers from Crewe to Shrewsbury... plus the Corby - St Pancras service isn't particularly "East Midland" so I don't think passengers will be too bothered about the geographic description on the side of their DMU.

I agree with:

• WCML taking over NW England-Preston-Scotland services.
• LNER (East Coast) taking over Newcastle/Middlesbrough-Liverpool services
• EMR taking over Cleethorpes-Manchester services
• local diesel services to the places in the East Midlands region south/east of M/c (Buxton/New Mills/Hope Valley) being taken over by EMR - these places are actually geographically in the East Midlands

The remaining TPE semi-fast services via Standedge should be transferred to Northern Rail.

 

[Glenn1969]

I disagree with LNER running to Manchester

As for Buxton, New Mills, Hadfield and Glossop I agree they look to Manchester for alignment and not to Derby so these services should stay with Northern. The only EMR service from Buxton should be to Derby if the line to Matlock is ever reopened

 

[Greybeard33]

I suggest that
...all diesel services from Chester are run by the Wales and Borders franchise, apart from trains from Euston, which would be run by the West Coast franchise

Did you really mean that TfW should take over Chester to Leeds via Bradford and Chester to Piccadilly via Altrincham?

 

[daodao]

Did you really mean that TfW should take over Chester to Leeds via Bradford and Chester to Piccadilly via Altrincham?

Yes to both, apart from splitting the Chester to Leeds at Victoria, with the Leeds-Victoria section retained by Northern and extended to Wigan and Southport. All Southport-M/c trains should run to Victoria.

 

[devonexpress]

It should be split into other operates, LNER taking North East services, Some of the North West to Scotlands taken over by Avanti, Others by TFW and some by TPE, with the remaining services kept by Northern.

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes to both, apart from splitting the Chester to Leeds at Victoria, with the Leeds-Victoria section retained by Northern and extended to Wigan and Southport. All Southport-M/c trains should run to Victoria.

Hmm. I doubt that the Welsh Government would be enthusiastic about taking on two additional routes that are entirely within England, or that the GMCA would be happy about more Manchester commuter services being controlled from Cardiff. However, this is getting OT for this thread.

 

[Meerkat]

I agree with:

• WCML taking over NW England-Preston-Scotland services.
• LNER (East Coast) taking over Newcastle/Middlesbrough-Liverpool services
• EMR taking over Cleethorpes-Manchester services
• local diesel services to the places in the East Midlands region south/east of M/c (Buxton/New Mills/Hope Valley) being taken over by EMR - these places are actually geographically in the East Midlands

The remaining TPE semi-fast services via Standedge should be transferred to Northern Rail.

why do you want to get rid of competition and more local control?

 

[daodao]

why do you want to get rid of competition and more local control?

The current franchises in Northern England (TPE & Northern Fail) are a complete mess. There needs to be streamlining of operations and removal of competition, which is confusing to passengers, with the longer distance services run by more competent operators.

Local control is desirable where services are relatively self-contained and local, so I would support expansion of Merseyrail (e.g. Hunt's Cross to Warrington Central, Kirkby to Skelmersdale), Metrolink (Deansgate to Warrington Central, Piccadilly to Glossop and to Rose Hill via Reddish) and Blackpool Trams (Squires Gate to Kirkham). I also suggest separate franchises for local services in NE England (including to Carlisle), Cumbria (as far south as Lancaster and Skipton, with trains running to Leeds) and West Yorkshire (Leeds/Bradford to Skipton/Ilkley and Leeds to Harrogate and York). Services to the East Midlands (Worksop/Lincoln, Scunthorpe/Cleethorpes, Nottingham, Buxton, New Mills/Hope Valley) should be run by EMR - that would facilitate more local control of services running in the East Midlands Region.

 

[Glenn1969]

I disagree and think decisions affecting the North should be taken in the North and not in London most of the time

I also think that as Glosspp/Hadfield, New Mills and Buxton align themselves with Manchester these services should be run by a Northern based franchise unless and until a line opens from Buxton to Derby