Class 319 network southeast first class

[Richard5608]

Can someone please upload a photo of the original first class accomodation introduced in 1990 I searched for years with no luck I can provide a reward for this any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[WesternLancer]

Can someone please upload a photo of the original first class accomodation introduced in 1990 I searched for years with no luck I can provide a reward for this any help would be greatly appreciated.

Not solving your problems but I expect some of Edward Pond's images were in the 1st class sections
https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...east-edward-pond-murals-and-nse-route-badges/

http://www.srpublicity.co.uk/nse/nse10.htm#t1

 

[47271]

I don't have any photos, but I have a very clear recollection of the First Class section of the second phase of 319s.

The seats fitted were identical to those in Standard Class of the 442s as built, 2+2, but with a darker blue moquette very similar to that found in Pendolino First Class.

I can't tell you which Edward Ponds were either side of the driver's door, sorry.

Try me with any other questions on it and I'll do my best!

 

[big all]

ironically the early panels where "eddy pond" rather than edward
and from memory the first class where the first 319 with 13 amp sockets for internal cleaning purposes but this part may be a false recollection ??

 

[WesternLancer]

ironically the early panels where "eddy pond" rather than edward
and from memory the first class where the first 319 with 13 amp sockets for internal cleaning purposes but this part may be a false recollection ??

I seem to recall reading once that Mr Pond's artwork was signed Eddie Pond in std and Edward Pond in 1st but this may be apocryphal...

Slightly off topic but there is an interesting post here by a graphic artist who worked for him during that time - now based in Hastings - who mentions the NSE work he did (muddled up with NR in the text) - also the comments below are of note
http://newgreyarea.blogspot.com/2012/08/edward-pond.html

 

[Merle Haggard]

A few weeks ago I travelled on an LNwR 319 and it still had the Pond murals. I was only able to photograph one end (77312) - passengers in the other. This one WAS signed 'Eddie'.









And, from my photo, the signature (which I miss spelt)

 

[Bletchleyite]

When were they converted to 2+1 First? It is really quite good for a suburban EMU.

 

[WesternLancer]

View attachment 72070 A few weeks ago I travelled on an LNwR 319 and it still had the Pond murals. I was only able to photograph one end (77312) - passengers in the other. This one WAS signed 'Eddie'.







View attachment 72069

And, from my photo, the signature (which I miss spelt)

Great to see that - amazing that it has survived! What route was the unit on?
Just so crass that they fitted picture frames for adverts over the artwork. Think this was in First's thameslink operation period.

 

[Helvellyn]

Whilst a Class 321 you can see the First Class layout that would have been used in this image > https://www.flickriver.com/photos/39918537@N04/11124551906/

There were sixteen seats in total, although four seats are out of sight, two either side of where the photographer has taken the picture.

You can see the moquette design in this image > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/321415_DTCO_First_Class_Interior.JPG

To be honest, for some reason I had thought that as delivered the Class 319/1, 321/3 and 321/4 units had this moquette (as used on the Class 442 units) in First Class when delivered > http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/rolling-stock/442/img/rsmth_int1nse.jpg

__________________________________________________

If anyone wants to see more Eddie/Edward Pond artwork then visit this page > https://www.nsers.org/edward-pond.html

At the bottom are the various Class 319 murals.

 

[WesternLancer]

To be honest, for some reason I had thought that as delivered the Class 319/1, 321/3 and 321/4 units had this moquette (as used on the Class 442 units) in First Class when delivered > http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/rolling-stock/442/img/rsmth_int1nse.jpg

.

Thanks. I can't recall that moquette on a 319 at the time, from memory only.

Thanks for the E Pond link.

 

[Merle Haggard]

A couple of points.
The 319 with the Edward Pond murals was in the 1753 Euston Northampton a couple of weeks ago. The LNwR 319s work rush hours, and there's one up am and down pm Northampton - the diagrams are somewhere on here. The 319s are in a wide variety of interior finishes!
Travelling in the 1st on 321/4s when they were new, I agree that the murals were probably signed 'Edward' at that end. I think I remember that the signature was not as informal as 'Eddie' in the ones I looked at every day.
In the first class of the 321/4s, when new, there was a smoking compartment behind the driver with 4 seats, with a bulkhead and swing door. Because of the swing door, the two pairs of seats faced in opposite directions but, even so, it was quite a contortion to get past the door and into the seats behind the open door if the more accessible seat was already occupied. Difficult to explain in words, I hope you see what I mean, but, when open, the outer edge of the swing door almost touched the cab bulkhead. The interior photo didn't show this.
It could also be alarming for the passenger if the compartment was at the very front when the train entered Linslade (?) tunnel at 100mph - the one that is single bore on the down fast. The rapid change in air pressure in the small volume of this front compartment resulted in the hopper vent slamming open against its spring, then fiercely shut again on exit. Not infrequently, this was accompanied by the (safety) glass shattering. The 321s were a backward step to the previous fleet - 317s and loco hauled - in my opinion, and I soon deserted to Wellingboro' - St P.

 

[JonathanH]

The class 319 first class will have looked very much like that in a 321/3, including the small compartment behind the driver, as noted by this diagram taken from the site https://www.networksoutheast.net/ac.html

This picture (also of a 321/4, rather than 319) from the same site gives an indication of the former partition on the ceiling.

Question I guess is whether there is a picture anywhere with the internal door (which became unnecessary very soon after their introduction) and different lightwork as 1990 was around the time that smoking started to be banned on the various Network South East Sectors. (It took until 2004 for it to be banned on the longer distance services run by South West Trains but the other operations and inner suburban services moved much earlier.)

 

[47271]

The class 319 first class will have looked very much like that in a 321/3, including the small compartment behind the driver, as noted by this diagram taken from the site https://www.networksoutheast.net/ac.html

This picture (also of a 321/4, rather than 319) from the same site gives an indication of the former partition on the ceiling.

Question I guess is whether there is a picture anywhere with the internal door (which became unnecessary very soon after their introduction) and different lightwork as 1990 was around the time that smoking started to be banned on the various Network South East Sectors. (It took until 2004 for it to be banned on the longer distance services run by South West Trains but the other operations and inner suburban services moved much earlier.)

The seat design and layout is exactly as I remember it on the 319s, although my earlier claim that they were in overall dark blue has been shown to be wrong. I was only about 12 at the time to be be fair, so recollections might be a bit vague.

The internal door was a relatively narrow double hinged aluminium unit within the glazed vestibule as I recall.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Thank you JonathanH for the diagram. The front first class area as drawn is identical to that on the 321/4s and shows the inconvenience of that swing door into the front smoking compartment much more clearly than my words. Maybe the designers were aware of the problem as in the diagram they cunningly show the door (which could swing either way) opening into the larger compartment. It was actually difficult to pull the door towards you (fingernails gripping the door edge, the handle recess too shallow to allow grip against the spring) but this was the solution to accessing the seats to the left. I never realised that the 319s had the same design, I thought it was a feature reserved for the Grand Union Northampton Line. Ms Priestman has a lot to answer for.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thank you JonathanH for the diagram. The front first class area as drawn is identical to that on the 321/4s and shows the inconvenience of that swing door into the front smoking compartment much more clearly than my words. Maybe the designers were aware of the problem as in the diagram they cunningly show the door (which could swing either way) opening into the larger compartment. It was actually difficult to pull the door towards you (fingernails gripping the door edge, the handle recess too shallow to allow grip against the spring) but this was the solution to accessing the seats to the left. I never realised that the 319s had the same design, I thought it was a feature reserved for the Grand Union Northampton Line. Ms Priestman has a lot to answer for.

The concept of a "smoking hutch" was ill advised really on that kind of train. Really not good for the driver who was surely in receipt of some stray smoke. I am reminded of a late evening journey on a TLK 319 , where the smoking area was used for illegal substances .....the term used by certain afficionados of such things is / was "hot boxing" - i.e making a very fuggy atmosphere.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Just to be clear; although I always headed for the 'smoking hutch' I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. Going home on a 12 car, I headed for the front one to be pretty sure of the joy of travel alone. Very few first class passengers seemed to smoke on trains; the Venn diagram (of smokers) must have been a bit odd!

 

[WesternLancer]

A couple of points.
The 319 with the Edward Pond murals was in the 1753 Euston Northampton a couple of weeks ago. The LNwR 319s work rush hours, and there's one up am and down pm Northampton - the diagrams are somewhere on here. The 319s are in a wide variety of interior finishes!
Travelling in the 1st on 321/4s when they were new, I agree that the murals were probably signed 'Edward' at that end. I think I remember that the signature was not as informal as 'Eddie' in the ones I looked at every day.
In the first class of the 321/4s, when new, there was a smoking compartment behind the driver with 4 seats, with a bulkhead and swing door. Because of the swing door, the two pairs of seats faced in opposite directions but, even so, it was quite a contortion to get past the door and into the seats behind the open door if the more accessible seat was already occupied. Difficult to explain in words, I hope you see what I mean, but, when open, the outer edge of the swing door almost touched the cab bulkhead. The interior photo didn't show this.
It could also be alarming for the passenger if the compartment was at the very front when the train entered Linslade (?) tunnel at 100mph - the one that is single bore on the down fast. The rapid change in air pressure in the small volume of this front compartment resulted in the hopper vent slamming open against its spring, then fiercely shut again on exit. Not infrequently, this was accompanied by the (safety) glass shattering. The 321s were a backward step to the previous fleet - 317s and loco hauled - in my opinion, and I soon deserted to Wellingboro' - St P.

Thanks for this info on the 319 usage.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Just to be clear; although I always headed for the 'smoking hutch' I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. Going home on a 12 car, I headed for the front one to be pretty sure of the joy of travel alone. Very few first class passengers seemed to smoke on trains; the Venn diagram (of smokers) must have been a bit odd!

Very good point on "social characteristics" of smokers - in the peak , this was the place where you could generally get a seat - though one hoped there were no pipe smokers in there !.

Standard class smoking areas seemed to be well patronised by "you must smoke in here" ...!

When allowed on the Underground , it could be diabolical in a "smoking" car.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Very good point on "social characteristics" of smokers - in the peak , this was the place where you could generally get a seat - though one hoped there were no pipe smokers in there !.

Standard class smoking areas seemed to be well patronised by "you must smoke in here" ...!

When allowed on the Underground , it could be diabolical in a "smoking" car.

Yes, I agree with all of that. When the 321's were reduced to having just the one 'smoking' coach it was striking, walking back through it from the front, that the people who travelled in that coach seemed to have a different standard of behaviour. Whereas the other coaches would still be reasonably tidy by the time Northampton was reached, the smoker would have a great deal of carelessly-discarded rubbish in it.

On one occasion travelling in the front compartment caused a delayed arrival. The cab bulkhead was far from sound proof (I will leave to imagination what could be heard when a driver bolted his sandwiches) but I must have had a conversation with a colleague that the driver overheard. Anyway, we were stopped by signal and the reason, it later turned out, was the failure of the signal inside Hunsbury Hill tunnel, which, as all will probably now, is an exceptional and unusual situation. I could only hear the driver's side of the conversation but it went 'Nah mate, I've gotta do it by the book. There's some ******* managers up the front'. And off he trudged. We could have negotiated...

 

[hexagon789]

Possibly this?

 

[WesternLancer]

Possibly this?

View attachment 72210

what date would that be. One heck of a crazy upholstery design!

 

[hexagon789]

what date would that be. One heck of a crazy upholstery design!

I think its 1998

 

[47271]

I think that psychedelic abomination was the refurb that Govia made on the original Standard Class only 319s, rather than the later batch under discussion here. I can't quite remember what they did to the 319/1s at that point, given that they were only seven or eight years old it would've been an early refurb.

I don't remember paying much attention to the First Class section in the late 90s, the main thing I recall was that Standard Class went from 3+2 to 2+2, and had a slightly less crazy blueish pattern on the upholstery.

 

[wellhouse]

Hexagon's photo in post #20 is the later 2+1 first class seating that was retrofitted (in refurbished 319/0 I recall)

These originally had only standard class seating, although Peak Hour Brighton services had areas temporarily labelled First Class.

 

[Helvellyn]

Hexagon's photo in post #20 is the later 2+1 first class seating that was retrofitted (in refurbished 319/0 I recall)

These originally had only standard class seating, although Peak Hour Brighton services had areas temporarily labelled First Class.

319021-319060 gained 2+1 First Class and were renumbered 319421-319460 for use on the longer distance services (e.g. Bedford-Brighton); 319161-319186 lost their 2+2 First Class and were renumbered 319361-319386 for use on the shorter metro services (e.g. St Albans City - Wimbledon Loop).

 

[hexagon789]

Hexagon's photo in post #20 is the later 2+1 first class seating that was retrofitted (in refurbished 319/0 I recall)

These originally had only standard class seating, although Peak Hour Brighton services had areas temporarily labelled First Class.

Thanks, NSE is not really my area, BR ScotRail is!

Hence 319 interiors isn't really where my knowledge lies, but I knew that some were originally Std only and that some gained better quality first class and a 'snug' in the motor car for the Brighton expresses