CrossCountry Voyagers: No interior decor change in 12 years and counting

[Goldfish62]

Please reread then reply

Please reread then reply, I said clean paneling, where needed. Repainting is part part of overhaul where needed. I agree well maintained interior is required , but disagree a complete gut and reconfiguration of interior needed

Well I'm sorry, I've reread and my comments based on what you said still stand so we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[GoneSouth]

I'm not sure what c2c would want with a fleet of Voyagers, or what they're doing running in the midlands...

On a more serious note, travelling a couple if times per month between Glasgow and Edinburgh, I always try and take the XC service as they are by far the most comfortable option (with the ScotRail Carstairs service being my second choice), they may be somewhat worn, but to me, they still represent a pretty decent way of making a journey.

Agreed they are reasonably comfortable when not full to busting but not in the same league as the XC HST I used recently with its huge window beautifully aligned with a table and 4 Comfy seats.

 

[greatvoyager]

Agreed they are reasonably comfortable when not full to busting but not in the same league as the XC HST I used recently with its huge window beautifully aligned with a table and 4 Comfy seats.

I tend to find the windows on HSTs get dirty very quickly, but 22x could do with a radical refurbishment to make them look fresh.

 

[coradiafan2000]

This may have been mentioned previously but remember Virgin (now Avanti) hasn't changed the interior of their Voyagers in the same time span (standard class anyway), and no one complains about them. The same goes for the Pendolinos.

I think this just comes from XCs inability to keep the interiors as nice as their west coast counterparts.

 

[Energy]

This may have been mentioned previously but remember Virgin (now Avanti) hasn't changed the interior of their Voyagers in the same time span (standard class anyway), and no one complains about them. The same goes for the Pendolinos.

I think this just comes from XCs inability to keep the interiors as nice as their west coast counterparts.

XC give a smaller budget for maintanence, Virgin's aren't too bad but they still need a good refurbishment, they look very 2002.

 

[yorksrob]

I travelled on these when they were new (pre operation princess)

They're not bad when they're overcrowded. The subdued lighting is pleasant and the upholstery has definitely been renewed since 17 years ago, although a change in style might be due (trojan perhaps ?).

Still prefer a HST though.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I travelled on these when they were new (pre operation princess)

They're not bad when they're overcrowded. The subdued lighting is pleasant and the upholstery has definitely been renewed since 17 years ago, although a change in style might be due (trojan perhaps ?).

Still prefer a HST though.

That does seem to be the general consensus. All trains become unpleasant when overcrowded.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I can see why people find the XC Voyager interiors not it's best - even I remember the interiors from 2001/2002.

The only bit of the interior I find that perhaps could do with a tidy is the bike area on the Voyagers - on route to Leeds, 04/04/19, I caught the 14:13 to Oxford to Birmingham New Street (+ 09:09 on the same journey but on route to Stamford on the 15/06/19) I thought might have been dry blood - I think, however, it was probably more like scratches.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the Voyager interiors except for the reduced number of tables. The air-freshener smell has dramatically improved the Voyager experience.

Off topic this next bit but I understand the XC HST interiors have existed since 2008 - I remember, after helping someone lift their pushchair onto the 16:03 at Birmingham New Street (I was heading to Leeds on this on the 04/04/19), entering Coach G where my seat was and the interior smelt clean.

If I'm honest, I think whoever at CrossCountry is in charge of the HST interiors does a great job - XC 170's included!

 

[CC 72100]

I can see why people find the XC Voyager interiors not it's best - even I remember the interiors from 2001/2002.

The only bit of the interior I find that perhaps could do with a tidy is the bike area on the Voyagers - on route to Leeds, 04/04/19, I caught the 14:13 to Oxford to Birmingham New Street (+ 09:09 on the same journey but on route to Stamford on the 15/06/19) I thought might have been dry blood - I think, however, it was probably more like scratches.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the Voyager interiors except for the reduced number of tables. The air-freshener smell has dramatically improved the Voyager experience.

Off topic this next bit but I understand the XC HST interiors have existed since 2008 - I remember, after helping someone lift their pushchair onto the 16:03 at Birmingham New Street (I was heading to Leeds on this on the 04/04/19), entering Coach G where my seat was and the interior smelt clean.

If I'm honest, I think whoever at CrossCountry is in charge of the HST interiors does a great job - XC 170's included!

170s included?!

They're the scruffiest of the lot.

(The voyagers aren't great, but with a fleet worked so intensively I can understand how it has become like this.)

 

[greatvoyager]

I can see why people find the XC Voyager interiors not it's best - even I remember the interiors from 2001/2002.

The only bit of the interior I find that perhaps could do with a tidy is the bike area on the Voyagers - on route to Leeds, 04/04/19, I caught the 14:13 to Oxford to Birmingham New Street (+ 09:09 on the same journey but on route to Stamford on the 15/06/19) I thought might have been dry blood - I think, however, it was probably more like scratches.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the Voyager interiors except for the reduced number of tables. The air-freshener smell has dramatically improved the Voyager experience.

Off topic this next bit but I understand the XC HST interiors have existed since 2008 - I remember, after helping someone lift their pushchair onto the 16:03 at Birmingham New Street (I was heading to Leeds on this on the 04/04/19), entering Coach G where my seat was and the interior smelt clean.

If I'm honest, I think whoever at CrossCountry is in charge of the HST interiors does a great job - XC 170's included!

Totally agree.

 

[greatvoyager]

XC give a smaller budget for maintanence, Virgin's aren't too bad but they still need a good refurbishment, they look very 2002.

Is that because XC have 58 units, compared to West Coast's 20?

 

[tbtc]

Why does the internal layout need to change? The Mk 1 TSO and FO lasted in the original layout throughout their life, as has the 317/1 and 317/5. Even the 1 st gen DMU refurbishments remained the same. However what is important is to ensure the seat cushions are changed and the paneling is cleaned / replaced as needed. What is the carbon foot print effect on a complete gutting and replacing the interior compared with a deep clean and replacement of worn components.

Agreed - I'm not sure when people started expecting brand new seats etc every few years - e.g. I see people complain that cascaded trains to a new TOC are "only" given fresh seat covers/ new handrails/ deep clean (as if there were a time in BR days when any cascaded stock was stripped back and completely overhauled.

Still, it's amusing to see people insist that these adequate trains need brand new seats etc when they are aghast at the idea of trains and station signs etc being repainted every five/seven/ten years when a franchise changes (because of the cost of this cosmetic change)

 

[yorksrob]

I think they could do with a bit more cushion and a 'facelift' these are train interiors that have been more or less the same for twenty years.

 

[fgwrich]

This may have been mentioned previously but remember Virgin (now Avanti) hasn't changed the interior of their Voyagers in the same time span (standard class anyway), and no one complains about them. The same goes for the Pendolinos.

I think this just comes from XCs inability to keep the interiors as nice as their west coast counterparts.

Is that because XC have 58 units, compared to West Coast's 20?

Not only that, but Virgin has given them a slight refresh over the years. These included creating the coach D with it's hybrid Standard/First style layout, fixed the toilet smell which still plagues the vestibules of Cross Country's, and made minor changes to the interior lighting (including the light blue / purple smaller lights under the luggage racks). All in all, you could tell the difference between the rather well maintained Virgin fleet, and the rather less looked after and battered Cross Country Fleet. Despite, being largely maintained by the same company at Central Rivers.

 

[greatvoyager]

Not only that, but Virgin has given them a slight refresh over the years. These included creating the coach D with it's hybrid Standard/First style layout, fixed the toilet smell which still plagues the vestibules of Cross Country's, and made minor changes to the interior lighting (including the light blue / purple smaller lights under the luggage racks). All in all, you could tell the difference between the rather well maintained Virgin fleet, and the rather less looked after and battered Cross Country Fleet. Despite, being largely maintained by the same company at Central Rivers.

So there is a fix for the smell? I always wondered if they were going to do anything about that

 

[greatvoyager]

I think they could do with a bit more cushion and a 'facelift' these are train interiors that have been more or less the same for twenty years.

The only real change has been the removal of the shop and cycle racks.

 

[yorksrob]

The only real change has been the removal of the shop and cycle racks.

Yes, that sounds about right.

 

[bramling]

Agreed - I'm not sure when people started expecting brand new seats etc every few years - e.g. I see people complain that cascaded trains to a new TOC are "only" given fresh seat covers/ new handrails/ deep clean (as if there were a time in BR days when any cascaded stock was stripped back and completely overhauled.

Still, it's amusing to see people insist that these adequate trains need brand new seats etc when they are aghast at the idea of trains and station signs etc being repainted every five/seven/ten years when a franchise changes (because of the cost of this cosmetic change)

Good post. In NSE days a train could have been moved from one place to another without need for any change to the interior at all (perhaps with the exception of changing the Pond murals!).

A change to colour schemes and seat coverings doesn’t go amiss every now and again, especially if done as part of planned works, but the focus should be on ongoing upkeep. SWT were always notable for being good at keeping their fleets in a presentable condition on a constant basis.

 

[GrimShady]

Because the DfT are incapable of finding a replacement..

DOR or modern equivalent

 

[The Ham]

I do wonder if they would be scope to free up one or two 22x's at a time if a few diagrams were to be replaced with 350's (ideally running as 8 coaches) between York and Newcastle/the Central Belt of Scotland.

Ideally it wouldn't be every service which it could be (given that some services go beyond the wires in Scotland it certainly wouldn't be all of them anyway), so as to retain some through services, and ideally with some overlap possibly to Darlington or even Middlesbrough.

@The Planner is this something which could be possible, given the lack of paths available in/around Birmingham for doing something similar between Birmingham and Manchester?

 

[The Planner]

Its possible, providing New St platforming works as there would be a lot of layovers. It is done on a similar level when the WCML is shut south of Rugby. XC will not run to Manchester and double up the Voyagers south of there with Chiltern running an additional Banbury Marylebone, Virgin run a Pendo in their path to Manchester (collaboration!). That only happens on a weekend though. You would have to directly replace the XC path though, it couldn't be additional.

 

[Class455]

I travelled on a Voyager for the first time on Monday from Guildford to Derby and I actually didn't mind it. Quite why the interior hasn't been updated yet during the 12 years that Arriva have held the XC Franchise for is beyond me but I do like the Virgin Trains interior. I don't know why people are complaining about just the XC Voyagers when Avanti's Voyagers and Pendolinos have not received such an interior upgrade either despite being with Virgin for over 15 years, although in fairness they are due to receive one soon.

In terms of CrossCountry's capacity issues, it seems inevitable that they will take on the ex Avanti Voyagers and hopefully they will take on the ex EMR 222's

 

[greatvoyager]

I travelled on a Voyager for the first time on Monday from Guildford to Derby and I actually didn't mind it. Quite why the interior hasn't been updated yet during the 12 years that Arriva have held the XC Franchise for is beyond me but I do like the Virgin Trains interior. I don't know why people are complaining about just the XC Voyagers when Avanti's Voyagers and Pendolinos have not received such an interior upgrade either despite being with Virgin for over 15 years, although in fairness they are due to receive one soon.

In terms of CrossCountry's capacity issues, it seems inevitable that they will take on the ex Avanti Voyagers and hopefully they will take on the ex EMR 222's

That's a good point... Maybe having the remaining 22x units will finally prompt XC to install a modern, common interior on them.

 

[JonathanH]

Quite why the interior hasn't been updated yet during the 12 years that Arriva have held the XC Franchise for is beyond me but I do like the Virgin Trains interior.

It costs money to change the interior and it was not specified in the franchise award. As noted upthread there isn't enough slack in the fleet to take units out of service for a heavy rebuild. I am sure that individual seat covers get replaced on a regular basis even if it is not immediately noticable because it is a like or like change.

In terms of CrossCountry's capacity issues, it seems inevitable that they will take on the ex Avanti Voyagers and hopefully they will take on the ex EMR 222's

It is not inevitable - it is subject to the DfT deciding to support it - depends quite a bit on pressure from politicians I imagine. How many made increased capacity on Cross Country a priority in their campaigns.

 

[Thunderer]

I agree with a lot of the comments on this subject. The XC HST is by far the most comfortable train out of all current stock for long distance journeys. The Voyager was doomed from the start as the whole Logistics of running shorter trains more often (Operation Princess) was fundamentally flawed as the whole timetable did not take into account the Birmingham Bottle-Kneck, thus giving a domino effect of late running trains. XC was then left with a fleet of woefully short trains to try and run an increasingly more popular long distance service and the result is what you see now and have experienced over the last 15 years, overcrowding. We can only assume what will happen in the future, cascaded Voyagers and Meridians or perhaps a new fleet of trains (probably something from Hitachi with nice hard seats?) who knows? For me its nothing short of criminal to see so many HST's unused parked up in sidings while people cram onto 4 and 5 coach trains every day. That is the lunacy of today's railways.."They are not compliant" (roll of the eyes!)

 

[Prestige15]

I agree with a lot of the comments on this subject. The XC HST is by far the most comfortable train out of all current stock for long distance journeys. The Voyager was doomed from the start as the whole Logistics of running shorter trains more often (Operation Princess) was fundamentally flawed as the whole timetable did not take into account the Birmingham Bottle-Kneck, thus giving a domino effect of late running trains. XC was then left with a fleet of woefully short trains to try and run an increasingly more popular long distance service and the result is what you see now and have experienced over the last 15 years, overcrowding. We can only assume what will happen in the future, cascaded Voyagers and Meridians or perhaps a new fleet of trains (probably something from Hitachi with nice hard seats?) who knows? For me its nothing short of criminal to see so many HST's unused parked up in sidings while people cram onto 4 and 5 coach trains every day. That is the lunacy of today's railways.."They are not compliant" (roll of the eyes!)

With many HST laying around this has to be a golden opitunity for XC as theres no sign of new stocks just yet and capacity is well needed, Obviously the HST need to be PRM compliant before being in passengers use again, with the mass delay of its PRM HST has started to steadying down it souldn't take as long as it took to get scotrail's/GWR/XC HST into service. XC have been concidering a couple of times on taking stored GWR (whatevers left) fleet but as far as i know, unconfirmed.

 

[RealTrains07]

Well considering XC gives bare minimum investment into its franchise compared to others. Few years back i think it was 2017 when XC handed over 20 million out of 23 million of their profits to private investors ?

source: channel 4

 

[Mordac]

£20 million would pay for about two trains.

 

[The Ham]

Well considering XC gives bare minimum investment into its franchise compared to others. Few years back i think it was 2017 when XC handed over 20 million out of 23 million of their profits to private investors ?

source: channel 4

Which given that there's £537 million of income is just 4%. It's also smaller than the amount of corporation tax paid (£5 million) and fairly small compared to the amount of premium payment made to DfT (£63 million).

As such, whilst there's an argument that companies are taking money out of the system, this is fairly small compared with the money which the government could choose to allow to be invested.

I've said before that the net subsidy for the day to day running of the railways is ~£173 million. However if you take into account the amount paid in corporation tax (£53 million) then the cost to the country is about £120 million (or £2 per person per year).

The crazy thing is, if XC were allowed to get more rolling stock then they would probably pay back more to the government over the next few years. To the extent that the investment would pay back and then some within 5 years.

 

[GoneSouth]

Which given that there's £537 million of income is just 4%. It's also smaller than the amount of corporation tax paid (£5 million) and fairly small compared to the amount of premium payment made to DfT (£63 million).

As such, whilst there's an argument that companies are taking money out of the system, this is fairly small compared with the money which the government could choose to allow to be invested.

I've said before that the net subsidy for the day to day running of the railways is ~£173 million. However if you take into account the amount paid in corporation tax (£53 million) then the cost to the country is about £120 million (or £2 per person per year).

The crazy thing is, if XC were allowed to get more rolling stock then they would probably pay back more to the government over the next few years. To the extent that the investment would pay back and then some within 5 years.

Well if those maths are correct, that’s an absolute bloody bargain at £2 per person per year!