Wigan - Liverpool - Southport - Wigan routing query

[Springs Branch]

I need to make a triangular journey Wigan - Liverpool - Southport - Wigan.

Maybe someone who understands the Routing Guide maps can help with validity of outward travel via St Helens Central.

Here's the story:-
1. My journey will be all in one day, starting after 09:30 and exiting the railway in Liverpool city centre and Southport.
2. The original cunning plan was to buy a Wigan to Formby CDR @ £10.00, plus a Sandhills to Liverpool Stations CDR @ £2.10. Total = £12.10
3. The NRE Planner gives plenty of itineraries between Wigan Wallgate and Formby via either Kirkby & Sandhills, or Southport at the £10.00 fare.
4. Obviously I'm not intending to leave the train at Formby.

However, I've noticed there's a slightly more expensive Wigan to Hightown CDR for £11.60 via Any Permitted. NRE Planner also produces itineraries via both Sandhills and Southport for this journey.

But the benefit with Hightown is if you enter "via St Helens Central", it will give itineraries for pretty much every Wigan NW to Lime St train, with onward connections from Liv. Central - all at the £11.60 "one ticket" fare.
(Trying for Wigan to Formby via St Helens produces a more expensive "more than one ticket" result)

So with Hightown as dummy destination, potentially I can use the faster & more frequent 319s from NW to Lime St, avoid the Kirkby change and buying two tickets, plus save 50p towards a hot brew.

Questions are:-
- Will I get any arguments using a Wigan to Hightown ticket on the outward train to Lime St via St. Helens Central?
- Any potential problems at the barriers in Southport doing the break of journey on the way home? I remember reading adverse reports about "inflexible' Merseyrail staff at Southport, but unsure if these were more about SOP ticket office rather than barrier staff.

 

[PeterY]

I did this journey back in September. I need to clear the lines. I brought a return to Hall Road using the 3 mile rule.

 

[Rhinojerry]

Can you not get to the nearest Merseyrail station,then get the all day ticket for about £5.30 i think it is.
Wigan to Kirkby maybe.

 

[Llandudno]

I did this journey back in September. I need to clear the lines. I brought a return to Hall Road using the 3 mile rule.

What is the ‘three mile rule?’

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the ‘three mile rule?’

The shortest route by which regular passenger services operate plus any route that is no more than 3 miles longer than that route (per the distances given in the National Rail Timetable) is automatically Permitted unless the ticket is routed not to allow it.

 

[yorkie]

Just to clarify: you are asking if Wigan to Hightown is valid via Southport, as well as being valid via Sandhills?

The answer is yes, without needing to consult the Routeing Guide; the shortest route is via Sandhills, while going via Southport is little more than a mile longer than this.

 

[Springs Branch]

Just to clarify: you are asking if Wigan to Hightown is valid via Southport, as well as being valid via Sandhills?

My main question is whether the outward journey is valid using the Wigan NW - St Helens Central - Lime St route.

For reference, the mileages from the eNRT are:

• Wallgate - Sandhills - Hightown 25½
• Wallgate - Southport - Hightown 26¾
• Wigan NW - Lime St - Liv. Central - Hightown 30¼ (½ mile less if you walk LIV - LVC)

There's no ambiguity about travelling via Kirkby or Southport - both are valid.

The Lime St route fails the 3 mile rule, but the the NRE Planner gives itineraries at the same fare if you force it to go via St Helens Central.
Hence my question whether St Helens is a mapped route in the Routing Guide - anticipating possible questions on the train or at Lime St barriers.

 

[Springs Branch]

Can you not get to the nearest Merseyrail station,then get the all day ticket for about £5.30 i think it is.
Wigan to Kirkby maybe.

I did consider this, buying Wigan to Garswood on the way out, but the showstopper is on the way home, when I'd need to add a Meols Cop to Wigan single at £7.50

 

[Djgr]

I need to make a triangular journey Wigan - Liverpool - Southport - Wigan.

Maybe someone who understands the Routing Guide maps can help with validity of outward travel via St Helens Central.

Here's the story:-
1. My journey will be all in one day, starting after 09:30 and exiting the railway in Liverpool city centre and Southport.
2. The original cunning plan was to buy a Wigan to Formby CDR @ £10.00, plus a Sandhills to Liverpool Stations CDR @ £2.10. Total = £12.10
3. The NRE Planner gives plenty of itineraries between Wigan Wallgate and Formby via either Kirkby & Sandhills, or Southport at the £10.00 fare.
4. Obviously I'm not intending to leave the train at Formby.

However, I've noticed there's a slightly more expensive Wigan to Hightown CDR for £11.60 via Any Permitted. NRE Planner also produces itineraries via both Sandhills and Southport for this journey.

But the benefit with Hightown is if you enter "via St Helens Central", it will give itineraries for pretty much every Wigan NW to Lime St train, with onward connections from Liv. Central - all at the £11.60 "one ticket" fare.
(Trying for Wigan to Formby via St Helens produces a more expensive "more than one ticket" result)

So with Hightown as dummy destination, potentially I can use the faster & more frequent 319s from NW to Lime St, avoid the Kirkby change and buying two tickets, plus save 50p towards a hot brew.

Questions are:-
- Will I get any arguments using a Wigan to Hightown ticket on the outward train to Lime St via St. Helens Central?
- Any potential problems at the barriers in Southport doing the break of journey on the way home? I remember reading adverse reports about "inflexible' Merseyrail staff at Southport, but unsure if these were more about SOP ticket office rather than barrier staff.

I don't consider that you will have any trouble. Hightown is one of those" magic" stations where a number of different routes appear sensible. In my time I have used a Manchester to Hightown return (Manchester-Southport-Hightown-Liverpool-Manchester).

Hightown Station also had a good pub next door for a few scoops.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Hightown Station also had a good pub next door for a few scoops.

The pub is OK, but the one time I tried it there was no food available. "The Railway" at Formby proved a worthy alternative.

 

[gray1404]

Hightown Pub used to be an excellent pub but it recently changed hands. It's now rather basic and I still don't think there is any food. That said, I went last week for a drink and they had the fire going so that was nice.

The Railway Formby an Ember Inn. So a bit of a chain pub. Not saying its bad though. I like the Weathersoons: Queens Picture House on South Road by Waterloo Station.

 

[JB_B]

My main question is whether the outward journey is valid using the Wigan NW - St Helens Central - Lime St route.

For reference, the mileages from the eNRT are:

• Wallgate - Sandhills - Hightown 25½
• Wallgate - Southport - Hightown 26¾
• Wigan NW - Lime St - Liv. Central - Hightown 30¼ (½ mile less if you walk LIV - LVC)

There's no ambiguity about travelling via Kirkby or Southport - both are valid.

The Lime St route fails the 3 mile rule, but the the NRE Planner gives itineraries at the same fare if you force it to go via St Helens Central.
Hence my question whether St Helens is a mapped route in the Routing Guide - anticipating possible questions on the train or at Lime St barriers.

North Western and Wallgate are both Members of Wigan routeing point group.

Hightown is associated with both Wigan and Liverpool routeing point groups.

Since the origin and destination share a common routeing point there are no mapped routes.

I think what you're seeing is down to the 3 mile rule.

Starting from North Western the route via Kirkby (and Sandhills) is the shortest route by rail *. After that it's the route via Southport and thirdly the route via St Helens Central (and Liverpool - various permutations) are within 3 miles of shortest.

Starting from Wallgate, you only get the first two.

* Journey planners use a different distance dataset to the figures in the eNRT ( and might - I think - also use a higher margin than 3 miles.)

 

[Springs Branch]

Hightown Pub ...... The Railway Formby ...... Queens Picture House on South Road by Waterloo Station.

I won't have time on this trip, but this is sowing the seeds of a future Northern Line pub crawl. Merseyrail's 15-min intervals mean not too long to wait for the next train - but at my age, lack of toilets on the trains might become a challenge!

 

[gray1404]

Might be worth starting a Merseyrail Northern/Wirral Line pub crawl thread as there are indeed a lot of options at many stations on the lines.

St Michael's is near Lark Lane and I notice at Freshfield I believe there is a micro little pub called Beer Station (their sign is based on old style railway signage).

 

[yorkie]

Might be worth starting a Merseyrail Northern/Wirral Line pub crawl thread as there are indeed a lot of options at many stations on the lines.

St Michael's is near Lark Lane and I notice at Freshfield I believe there is a micro little pub called Beer Station (their sign is based on old style railway signage).

Feel free to create a thread; the Trip Planning section would be the best place for it .

 

[gray1404]

Feel free to create a thread; the Trip Planning section would be the best place for it .

Thanks. Done: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/pub-crawl-on-the-merseyrail-northern-and-wirral-lines.197049/