Petition for Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16

[railfan100]

Because we want an improved link to Piccadilly without having to use Metrolink and were promised an Airport service. Most passengers are put off by the thought of changing trains and through tickets including Metrolink are not readily available from these stations

People change flights all over the world and that is more work than changing trains. Ever been a transit passenger in DXB? Hundreds of thousands do it everyday. Personally I do not feel Bradford should have a link to Piccadilly but if it has been promised that is another story.

 

[alistairlees]

If Victoria was the size it was in 1991 although with a decent refurb there would be NO capacity issues. With services using Victoria as an equal to Piccadilly with true distribution there would be no problem. Would have been much better than the current no long term strategy approach. It will cost hundreds of millions to build flyovers. Such poor planning would never happen in countries like Germany.

I normally refer people to the unbelievable mess that is Berlin Brandenburg Airport when such statements are made.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Railways are strategic National infrastructure, there are vital and key to the growth of all cities at many levels..

Since this thread is specific to Manchester as a city, any aspiration worthwhile as it might be to meet your own personal views from what you say above, the way that Manchester has fared in terms of having another station to match Manchester Piccadilly, shows that Manchester Victoria in terms of service provision and station facilities to be more like a bigger version of Bolton. This station is just a small transport facility with four through platforms and two east-facing bay platforms. The land area of what once was eight of the ten terminal bay platforms has been given over to the Manchester Metrolink system and that area has received a new roof. The recent matter of the lifts at Manchester Victoria that connect platforms 4, 5 and 6 to the main station concourse only finally being given permission for their their upgrading, very long overdue, is an example of how poorly the station is viewed by those powers-that-be. Then there is the matter of the trans-Pennine route to Leeds not being deemed worthy for electrification by governments of differing political hues since the end of the Second World War. So it does seem that whilst you feel that railways are a strategic national infrastructure, governments in power for the last sixty years or so have felt that Manchester Victoria seems not to have been thought of in the same way that Manchester Piccadilly has been.

 

[Wtloild]

Bearing in mind that the main issues at Piccadilly are:

a) too many trains criss-crossing the throat of the main station
b) the constant need to keep Castlefield corridor traffic moving as any stationary train causes chaos

What about making Picc more of an interchange by introducing some northwest facing bays alongside 13/14?
Terminate various southbound trains there, avoiding the desperate panic to constantly keep things moving?
Instead of running everything through to the airport, run a frequent shuttle service with adequate luggage capacity - from Mayfield, which if connected smartly to the new platforms could be a relatively painless transfer.
Relative to other options, could be a cheap & effective solution.

 

[Meerkat]

Two extra platforms would help with the flat junctions wouldn’t it?
Stack trains easier, two trains unloading at once. Potentially let one overtake if it makes regulation easier etc etc.
And of course if it helps dwell times then it helps presentation at the junctions

 

[Bletchleyite]

through tickets including Metrolink are not readily available from these stations

Is that actually that much of an issue now you can just tap your contactless card or phone on the reader like LU? It's not like it's a million quid, and not having to go to the TVM removes the faff.

 

[Greybeard33]

Two extra platforms would help with the flat junctions wouldn’t it?
Stack trains easier, two trains unloading at once. Potentially let one overtake if it makes regulation easier etc etc.
And of course if it helps dwell times then it helps presentation at the junctions

Quite. The four through platforms at Manchester Victoria currently handle 13tphpd including a freight path. These include some terminating services that require extended dwells. As for Piccadilly, there are flat junctions to the west and east where conflicting movements constrain capacity.

The two Piccadilly through platforms have only 12tphpd including a freight path, but congestion is far worse than at Victoria. Two additional platforms would greatly alleviate platform crowding and improve punctuality performance.

 

[railfan100]

governments in power for the last sixty years or so have felt that Manchester Victoria seems not to have been thought of in the same way that Manchester Piccadilly has been.

There is a lack of any future planning that I am seeing. Look at the rate Manchester is growing the next 50 years should be significant growth for the city I cannot see how just a short term plan of platforms 15 and 16 can help. It will only be a full scalable solution with flyovers and that will be very expensive and high impact construction.

With the current strategy where is the plan to meet the challenges of such a fast growing city? How can the future capacity be delivered for the next 50 years without the flyovers? Before building new platforms there needs to be a plan an endgame and I fail to see that. Unless flyovers are delivered and four tracks throughout the corridor are put in place then Victoria still has a key part to play. If the station is not important why construct the new curve and direct Pennine services again through the station it is like groundhog day!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is a lack of any future planning that I am seeing. Look at the rate Manchester is growing the next 50 years should be significant growth for the city I cannot see how just a short term plan of platforms 15 and 16 can help. It will only be a full scalable solution with flyovers and that will be very expensive and high impact construction.

With the current strategy where is the plan to meet the challenges of such a fast growing city? How can the future capacity be delivered for the next 50 years without the flyovers? Before building new platforms there needs to be a plan an endgame and I fail to see that. Unless flyovers are delivered and four tracks throughout the corridor are put in place then Victoria still has a key part to play. If the station is not important why construct the new curve and direct Pennine services again through the station it is like groundhog day!

Manchester is a large city in the north of England that has had Labour Party councillor control for what seems like eons and although railways are said to be a strategic part of the region of the North West, the situation in which Manchester finds itself is one that could have been addressed years ago, but was not.

 

[Howardh]

Manchester is a large city in the north of England that has had Labour Party councillor control for what seems like eons and although railways are said to be a strategic part of the region of the North West, the situation in which Manchester finds itself is one that could have been addressed years ago, but was not.

In the 70's there was no Windsor Link but there was to be an underground service between Victoria and Piccadilly. I wonder where we would be now if that had been built; whether the Windsor Link would have been built and the Ordsall Curve? Sure the two stations are now connected by a tram, which zig-zags slowly through the centre, but I understand the tube would have taken just as long as it was planned round the city centre with several stops?
And also I am sure I have read that there are considerations for a tunnel heavy-rail link between Vic and Picc; if anyone can back this up with a link I'd be grateful!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the 70's there was no Windsor Link but there was to be an underground service between Victoria and Piccadilly. I wonder where we would be now if that had been built; whether the Windsor Link would have been built and the Ordsall Curve? Sure the two stations are now connected by a tram, which zig-zags slowly through the centre, but I understand the tube would have taken just as long as it was planned round the city centre with several stops?
And also I am sure I have read that there are considerations for a tunnel heavy-rail link between Vic and Picc; if anyone can back this up with a link I'd be grateful!!

The tram is probably quicker than an underground heavy rail service overall because you have to walk down to it. Compare Picc-Vic with Liverpool Lime St<->Liverpool Central - almost nobody uses the Wirral Line to do this as it's 10 minutes' walk and you'd walk that far through tunnels to get to the Loop unless you use the (well-hidden) lifts at both ends.

Ordsall is probably even quicker, but it's only half hourly (I think) so you could end up with it taking about 35 minutes if you arrived at the wrong time or couldn't board due to overcrowding.

 

[Howardh]

The tram is probably quicker than an underground heavy rail service overall because you have to walk down to it. Compare Picc-Vic with Liverpool Lime St<->Liverpool Central - almost nobody uses the Wirral Line to do this as it's 10 minutes' walk and you'd walk that far through tunnels to get to the Loop unless you use the (well-hidden) lifts at both ends.

Ordsall is probably even quicker, but it's only half hourly (I think) so you could end up with it taking about 35 minutes if you arrived at the wrong time or couldn't board due to overcrowding.

According to Wiki the route had to be diverted due to a huge secret nuclear shelter built underground!

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to Wiki the route had to be diverted due to a huge secret nuclear shelter built underground!

Which route, sorry? Picc-Vic?

 

[Howardh]

Which route, sorry? Picc-Vic?

Yes!!

 

[DarloRich]

lets see if Boris magics up the money to fund this work as part of his will pay back new northern Tory voters for baking me pledge. Don't hold your breath especially with Burnham in as mayor..............

Manchester is a large city in the north of England that has had Labour Party councillor control for what seems like eons and although railways are said to be a strategic part of the region of the North West, the situation in which Manchester finds itself is one that could have been addressed years ago, but was not.

Because, and here is the key point, your Tory chums wouldn't pony up for dirty northern towns. They might have to now. Local politicians, especially Tory ones, need to play their cards cleverly now. Investment is badly needed and for perhaps the first time in recent memory they have a lever to make that happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sure the two stations are now connected by a tram, which zig-zags slowly through the centre, but I understand the tube would have taken just as long as it was planned round the city centre with several stops?

Between Manchester Victoria to Manchester Piccadilly railway stations, there are three well situated intermediate Manchester Metrolink tram stops that serve the inner city core:-
Shudehill.....this serves the bus station there
Market Street....this serves the Arndale Centre and the large retail premises such as Debenhams and the Primark store that once was Lewis's.
Piccadilly Gardens....this serves the Parker Street bus station

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

lets see if Boris magics up the money to fund this work as part of his will pay back new northern Tory voters for baking me pledge.

I was not aware that Boris had made a pledge that would have allowed him to be baked....

 

[DarloRich]

I was not aware that Boris had made a pledge that would have allowed him to be baked....

thanks. Dyslexic, so you know, not perfect. Unlike you................

Any chance you could interact with the point?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because, and here is the key point, your Tory chums wouldn't pony up for dirty northern towns. They might have to now. Local politicians, especially Tory ones, need to play their cards cleverly now. Investment is badly needed and for perhaps the first time in recent memory they have a lever to make that happen.

Firstly, let me address the reason why Johnson now holds the position that he does after the recent General Election. Ask yourself why rock-solid Northern towns such as Sedgefield and Leigh are not now represented by a Labour MP. It couldn't possibly be that "Corbyn of the Islington Oblast" was the best election gift to the Conservative Party since Foot...or could it? Labour voters who once could be guaranteed to fill their voting boxes with votes for the Labour Party did not do so for the first time in living memory in many Northern towns and I remain unconvinced that Johnson would have been seen in those areas as a likely saviour, so why did these areas vote in the way that they did.

Secondly, we are only days into the new Government and even you would not expect the "Treasury magic wand" to be waved over those Northern towns so soon, even though this is the pantomime season. Johnson already has made appearances in which he clearly stated his thanks to those Northern voters who voted for the Conservative Party.

 

[DarloRich]

Firstly, let me address the reason why Johnson now holds the position that he does after the recent General Election. Ask yourself why rock-solid Northern towns such as Sedgefield and Leigh are not now represented by a Labour MP. It couldn't possibly be that "Corbyn of the Islington Oblast" was the best election gift to the Conservative Party since Foot...or could it? Labour voters who once could be guaranteed to fill their voting boxes with votes for the Labour Party did not do so for the first time in living memory in many Northern towns and I remain unconvinced that Johnson would have been seen in those areas as a likely saviour, so why did these areas vote in the way that they did.

Secondly, we are only days into the new Government and even you would not expect the "Treasury magic wand" to be waved over those Northern towns so soon, even though this is the pantomime season. Johnson already has made appearances in which he clearly stated his thanks to those Northern voters who voted for the Conservative Party.

yawn. Still no meaningful answer. it is a waste of time trying to interact with you. It is tiresome.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The whole point of 'Picc-Vic' was to allow through-running between suburban services north and south of the city, with a central station in the basement of the Arndale Centre (for which the 'box' was actually built) and freeing up the two main-line stations for long-distance services. Four-tracking or double-decking of the MSJ & A viaducts or flying-junctions for the Ordsall Curve is just pure fantasy - I was struck travelling over the 'corridor' yesterday how close some of the recent high-density developments are to the tracks. The visual intrusion would be monstrous, the disruption during construction intense, whilst some of the listed road over-bridges would be lost. The Manchester Arena won't be leaving Victoria any time soon - it is one of the largest and most successful venues in the country., partly due to its city-centre location and excellent rail links. Revival of Exchange station is now blocked by recent developments, whilst over at Mayfield (now partially demolished) a huge regeneration project is planned.

In the short-term Platforms 15/16 can offer some operational flexibilty, allowing trains to be recessed, and also significantly improve the passenger environment. Platforms 13/14 are downright dangerous - it is only a matter of time before there is a nasty accident due to the hideous overcrowding in the peak. Removal of the platform buildings has helped a bit, but it is miserable place to wait for a train home on a typical cold and wet Manchester night.

In the longer term, 'Picc-Vic' needs to be looked at again, but in conjunction with HS2 and NPR. There is a case for a complete rethink at Piccadilly, with an underground station for high-speed services (favoured by Andy Burnham) to allow through running.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

yawn. Still no meaningful answer. it is a waste of time trying to interact with you. It is tiresome.

Indeed, you said that you are dyslexic in an earlier posting...a matter that I had no means of knowing. I just thought that you were attempting to bring some humour into the thread, to lighten the tone.

Since it was you who introduced Johnson in the posting to which I originally responded to, all I have done is to introduce Johnson as a comparative response, based on the actuality of the result of the last General Election and to say it is rather too soon to expect financial wonders in the very first week of this new Government.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The whole point of 'Picc-Vic' was to allow through-running between suburban services north and south of the city, with a central station in the basement of the Arndale Centre (for which the 'box' was actually built) and freeing up the two main-line stations for long-distance services.

Matters moved on after that time, when the Arndale Centre had a basement bus station which was accessed by the road known as Cannon Street. The Arndale Centre then was redeveloped in its middle section by Cannon Street and the adjacent area towards Shudehill being obliterated and that area being the site of new Arndale Centre internally situated retail units.

 

[DarloRich]

Since it was you who introduced Johnson in the posting to which I originally responded to, all I have done is to introduce Johnson as a comparative response, based on the actuality of the result of the last General Election and to say it is rather too soon to expect financial wonders in the very first week of this new Government.

Perhaps we can agree that, having won many northern seats for the first time, Johnson really SHOULD invest something in those towns to try and retain their support. Can that, as a concept, be supported? We can leave the practicalities to another day.

This kind of project is one that I think Johnson should look at to deliver that support.

ndeed, you said that you are dyslexic in an earlier posting...a matter that I had no means of knowing. I just thought that you were attempting to bring some humour into the thread, to lighten the tone.

Don't worry. I find screen proof reading really challenging. It is the only time it is noticeable, externally anyway. On paper and print I am fine. I also have Dyscalculia which is much more noticeable. I really struggle with the concepts of maths and mental artihmatic is very difficult for me. Perversely "long" mathematics and especially equations and formulas I find really easy!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Perhaps we can agree that, having won many northern seats for the first time, Johnson really SHOULD invest something in those towns to try and retain their support. Can that, as a concept, be supported? We can leave the practicalities to another day.

Actually I disagree. BJ should invest in the North regardless of whether he won seats there. Otherwise it becomes circular. Piccadilly 15 and 16 would be a great start then electrify the CLC line to Liverpool. Then to Stalybridge grid feeder then - you get the idea
1. Everyone goes to London/SE
2. Oh most people are there so we need to spend most money there and improve transport links - lets build Crossrail 2'
3. More people move to London/SE because of good infrastructure lets spend money there.
4. Rinse and repeat
Break this cycle. Spend money in the north (and midlands) - get Piccadilly 15 and 16 done and then look at other interventions such as flyovers/unders - Piccadily-Vic tunnel etc also.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

So I scanned this in from Modern Railways and put it in my lab notebook and then did my crayonista bit.

 

[railfan100]

Underground Victoria station has the river Irk as we know, there are so many rooms and various facilities underground that station an underground aspect to serve heavy rail could not be built without clearing the entire site and starting again. The Picc-Vic underground will never come, then you have a number of core BT tunnels around.

As I have said before there should be a plan present that is credible and valid before starting to throw up two new platforms at Piccadilly. What sort of transport planning is building and then figuring out the rest later! It sounds bonkers, build them indeed when there is a full end to end plan that can scale.

 

[CdBrux]

Because, and here is the key point, your Tory chums wouldn't pony up for dirty northern towns. They might have to now. Local politicians, especially Tory ones, need to play their cards cleverly now. Investment is badly needed and for perhaps the first time in recent memory they have a lever to make that happen.

Investment that makes a real and obvious difference to the service provided is needed. If that includes 15/16 seems debatable based on the NR report linked a few pages back. The advantage is that it is probably close to 'shovel ready' vs other schemes. The disadvantage may be the proof to the likes of Calder valley, Bolton line or other residents outside the major cities that it makes an obvious difference to them and their town and is not just more money invested in a major city that already gets 'lots' (in relative terms) of investment vs their town.

 

[Greybeard33]

There is a lack of any future planning that I am seeing. Look at the rate Manchester is growing the next 50 years should be significant growth for the city I cannot see how just a short term plan of platforms 15 and 16 can help. It will only be a full scalable solution with flyovers and that will be very expensive and high impact construction.

With the current strategy where is the plan to meet the challenges of such a fast growing city? How can the future capacity be delivered for the next 50 years without the flyovers? Before building new platforms there needs to be a plan an endgame and I fail to see that. Unless flyovers are delivered and four tracks throughout the corridor are put in place then Victoria still has a key part to play. If the station is not important why construct the new curve and direct Pennine services again through the station it is like groundhog day!

There is no pressing need for more trains into or through Manchester. What is needed is for the existing services to run reliably and punctually, with long enough trains to provide adequate capacity. That is what the Piccadilly/Oxford Road scheme can deliver.

Growth in patronage can be accommodated by train lengthening for the foreseeable future. Many trains into London are 240m long, while many trains into Manchester are less than a third of that length! It would be crazy to spend hundreds of millions on flying junctions, quad tracking or tunnels just to enable more 3/4 carriage trains to run even closer together. As well as Piccadilly/Oxford Road, the priority for infrastructure investment should be platform lengthening throughout the region, to enable all services to be a minimum of 6-car, growing to 8-car in the longer term.

 

[Glenn1969]

As a Calder Valley user I disagree. We have no link to Manchester Inter City services or the Airport at present and Victoria is a dead end. I think we deserve a through service to at least Piccadilly and indeed were promised one in the TSR in 2015