Missing advanced trains because of previous late running

[ajdunlop]

Imagine I have an advanced ticket from B to C but I am in A and have to get to B to start that journey, what happens if my A to B train is late / cancelled and I miss my B to C advanced ticket? Is my advanced ticket not honoured or can I proceed on a later train because of the previous delay? I am assuming that this journey (from A to C) is one which National Rail Enquires would have given me when entering B as a via.

Also I have a season ticket so imagine I have a season ticket covering from A to B and I buy the advanced ticket from B to C. Are these circumstances different from the simple split journey above as I believe that there are special conditions in this case, which is why you can book an onward journey from your season ticket and the train doesn't have to call at the named station, but this is not the case for split tickets where you must be on a service that stops in the case of split tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Oh dear, he we go again...

Advance ticket terms state "If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey."

So, can you buy a ticket from A to B and another ticket from B to C for one journey? Or is that two journeys?

National Rail Conditions of Carriage states that you "may combine two or more tickets for one journey".

I think that's pretty clear.

However we've had this debate several times (use the search feature if you're interested) and some people think it is not clear. If it isn't clear, then there is a legal mechanism for dealing with that...

.

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999
Written contracts
7. - (1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language.
(2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under regulation 12.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

(Regulation 12 is about injunctions to prevent continued use of unfair terms).

... in which case the consumer wins.

So, if it's clear, as I beleive it is, that two or more tickets can form one journey, and that Advance tickets can be used for delays that occur during the journey and let you complete the journey, then you're fine.

If it's not clear, then the law dictates that you're fine.

In the highly unlikely (we've never heard of it happening!) event that a guard disagrees, then cite this to them, and if they still disagree ask for them for their name and details of how to refer the matter to a higher level. Ask if they are familiar with the conditions of carriage, and ask to see a copy of all rules that they are citing from.

 

[paul1609]

Wouldnt the National Rail terms of conditions be exempt from the Unfair Contract legislation as they are a statutory undertaking?

 

[bangor-toad]

Imagine I have an advanced ticket from B to C but I am in A and have to get to B to start that journey, what happens if my A to B train is late / cancelled and I miss my B to C advanced ticket? Is my advanced ticket not honoured or can I proceed on a later train because of the previous delay? I am assuming that this journey (from A to C) is one which National Rail Enquires would have given me when entering B as a via.

[Snip].

Hi,
I regularly travel between Grantham and Kings Cross with advance tickets and also go down to see people in south London using a travelcard.

I've missed a pre-booked train at Kings Cross because the incoming trains in South London were all messed up. It took about 15 mins to queue at Kings Cross but I explained it, they looked up that my train really had been delayed and then re-issued me tickets for the next train to Granthan with no extra charge.

Overall, it's a bit of a pain in terms of time but the process seems to work.
Cheers,
Jason

 

[tony_mac]

Wouldnt the National Rail terms of conditions be exempt from the Unfair Contract legislation as they are a statutory undertaking?

The OFT have already had one investigation into the NRCoC (under Unfair Contract legislation) so that would indicate that they are not exempt.

 

[John @ home]

Wouldnt the National Rail terms of conditions be exempt from the Unfair Contract legislation as they are a statutory undertaking?

National Rail is a trading name used by the Association of Train Operating Companies, a trade association whose members are the train companies. Were you confusing it with Network Rail?

National Rail is a title used by the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) as a generic term to define the passenger rail services operated in Great Britain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rail

 

[premier01]

National Rail is a trading name used by the Association of Train Operating Companies, a trade association whose members are the train companies. Were you confusing it with Network Rail?

I have previously experienced this with a Leeds to Newcastle Advance Ticket when travelling on an Anytime Return ticket from Preston to Leeds to make the connection-the train from Manchester to Leeds was delayed by 20 mins and I missed the Leeds connection-the customer service staff were not sure that I would be allowed to travel on XC-the next available train-when the original ticket was with East Coast but the XC ticket collector was more that happy to allow me to travel-following confirmation from the customer service staff that there was a delay-to travel on the train.

That seems to be the correct process.

In another situation I was travelling on a Advance ticket from York to Edinburgh and the East Coast trains service was delayed by about 20 mins.

There was another East Coast trains service due within 5 mins-guessing from another station-and the customer service advisor seemed to think I had to wait for the delayed train to get in and that the ticket wouldn't be valid on the next train-I waited for the delayed train but really think that in that event the ticket should have been valid on the train.

As it was the train was delayed by over 30 mins and I probably could have claimed compensation for that.

 

[rail-britain]

How about this one?
Glasgow - Preston Advance Single arrives Preston at 10:00
Preston - Glasgow Advance Single departing Preston at 10:40
However, the southbound train arrives at 10:50, missing the return journey

I do this quite often for a document transfer, however instead of 40 minutes I increase it by 1 hour (so in the example above I would be on the 11:40)
Does the same rule apply?

 

[premier01]

How about this one?
Glasgow - Preston Advance Single arrives Preston at 10:00
Preston - Glasgow Advance Single departing Preston at 10:40
However, the southbound train arrives at 10:50, missing the return journey

I do this quite often for a document transfer, however instead of 40 minutes I increase it by 1 hour (so in the example above I would be on the 11:40)
Does the same rule apply?

I would suggest that it does however you would need to make sure that you have allowed the minimum connection time.

 

[yorkie]

It's more difficult, can you claim that it is one journey? If not, then there could be problems, as the conditions state you can continue your journey if there are delays to your journey, and it is unclear if this means that separate out and return legs being combined are covered or not.

However common sense would suggest it should be valid.

This cropped up last year, the topic can be found here.

I agree with Dave that the reason cannot matter, and a "document transfer" cannot be dismissed simply as not a good reason. However the issue I have is whether or not this counts as 2 journeys, and if it does, are you still covered?

 

[Ferret]

This cropped up last year, the topic can be found here.

Ah, Groundhog day again! I've still not changed my view from last time! I'd expect a Guard to take the common sense view and allow the customer to travel regardless of technicalities!

 

[yorkie]

Ah, Groundhog day again! I've still not changed my view from last time! I'd expect a Guard to take the common sense view and allow the customer to travel regardless of technicalities!

Totally sensible. And, to be fair, I think the vast majority would too!

 

[yorksrob]

I was very pleasantly surprised recently when having just arrived at St Pancras in time to see my pre-booket train depart after being delayed by a broken down tube train, I explained my situation to the EMT booking officer who asked to see my tube ticket, then promptly stamped my my train ticket so that I could travel on the next train. I have been forced to stump up a full anytime fare in similar situations in the past so it was very encouraging to experience an example of excellent customer service.

 

[Ferret]

I was very pleasantly surprised recently when having just arrived at St Pancras in time to see my pre-booket train depart after being delayed by a broken down tube train, I explained my situation to the EMT booking officer who asked to see my tube ticket, then promptly stamped my my train ticket so that I could travel on the next train. I have been forced to stump up a full anytime fare in similar situations in the past so it was very encouraging to experience an example of excellent customer service.

On a related theme, I was recently put in a bit of a position with an Advance ticketholder from Brum International. His flight was delayed due to ATC so he was on the train an hour behind. I guess strictly speaking he was in need of a brand new ticket, but then it was hardly circumstances within his control that caused him to miss his booked train. I guess you could argue that he should've contacted Customer Services before jumping on my train but it still seemed illogical to charge him for a new SOS. Upshot of it all was that I asked where he'd come from, checked it out on the web and accepted his ticket.

Personally, I think we all know that there is now a significant minority of passengers who are abusing Advance tickets, and it's all about weeding out those who are blatantly taking the proverbial. Not an easy task for us, and I can quite see how genuine cases are mixed up with those who are on the fiddle. As usual it's the minority that spoil things for everyone else.........

 

[Pumbaa]

I was very pleasantly surprised recently when having just arrived at St Pancras in time to see my pre-booket train depart after being delayed by a broken down tube train,

Out of interest - how would this work every time?

Eg - a journey I do frequently - Orpington (S London) to Liverpool.

Advance ticket gives you a 50 min connection time through London. But the reservation only applies to the Euston - Liv service, so I would take a later train because I don't need 50 mins to complete the cross-London transfer.

During the transfer, the tube goes belly up or something, and I miss my train. Two problems here; 1) would they know I didn't respect the cross-london connection time, and 2) I didn't think NR could get a log of problems on the tube, so how would they know?

 

[yorksrob]

Out of interest - how would this work every time?

Eg - a journey I do frequently - Orpington (S London) to Liverpool.

Advance ticket gives you a 50 min connection time through London. But the reservation only applies to the Euston - Liv service, so I would take a later train because I don't need 50 mins to complete the cross-London transfer.

During the transfer, the tube goes belly up or something, and I miss my train. Two problems here; 1) would they know I didn't respect the cross-london connection time, and 2) I didn't think NR could get a log of problems on the tube, so how would they know?

Well, I'm presuming the fact that I turned up very apologetically at the office three minutes after the stated depature time clearly puffed out from running along Kings Cross St Pancras' subterranean passages possibly led the booking officer to take pity on me. If I'd sauntered up half an hour later making loud demands he may have taken a dimmer view. He also checked my underground ticket to see that I wasn't making it up.

With regard to the general question of delays on the underground, I presume that they have service updates on the internet? Who knows, if LU have their own information systems perhaps they could allow NR booking offices to log into it. As for enforcing minimum cross London interchange times, this is presumably impossible. I'm also guessing that the good booking staff will be aware that the majority of passengers on advanced purchase tickets will be continuing their journey on seperate tickets as it's impossible to combine, for example, an off-peak return from the Southern Region with single AP tickets so through tickets will often be more expensive.

 

[royaloak]

On a related theme, I was recently put in a bit of a position with an Advance ticketholder from Brum International. His flight was delayed due to ATC so he was on the train an hour behind. I guess strictly speaking he was in need of a brand new ticket, but then it was hardly circumstances within his control that caused him to miss his booked train

Or he could have bought a flexible ticket in the first place, just to be on the safe side!
If it was the railways fault then fair enough let them travel, but if it is somebody else's fault charge them for the appropriate ticket and tell them to claim it back from who-ever caused the delay, I don't see why the railway should loose out because everybody wants the cheapest ticket, but when it goes belly up they then want the flexibility of a more expensive ticket. They cant have it both ways, a friend of mine flies out of Heathrow quite a bit and always buys an open return for the train journey just in case. Now are you saying that the person who buys the cheapest ticket should still get the same flexibility!

 

[Greenback]

Indeed, I've always bought flexible tickets when flying long haul just in case there's some problem coming back. I feel I;ve wasted my money now, all I need have done was to buy an advance and then explain to the nice conductor that my plane from Auckland was 3 hours late due to refuelling dificulties in Los Angeles!

 

[yorkie]

During the transfer, the tube goes belly up or something, and I miss my train. Two problems here; 1) would they know I didn't respect the cross-london connection time, and 2) I didn't think NR could get a log of problems on the tube, so how would they know?

They can ask what train you got, and there may not be a TRUST-like link to LU but they will be able to get an idea of whether there are significant delays or not. If the claimed train from Orpington was on time then it would take something significant, given the generous cross-London allowances!

 

[royaloak]

Which is why it is so generous.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I had a chap only today trying to tell me porkies.

He presented his advance ticket, which was booked on the train 45 mins previously. He immediately told me the train from Chester was late so he missed the connection.

I asked to see the reservation from the previous journey which he duly showed me. So a quick phone call to Control led me to find out the train he was booked on left Chester 2 mins late, and arrived Manchester 2 mins early. So no excuse, new ticket for this leg required.

 

[yorkie]

Tut tut! Telling porkies like that deserves a new ticket!

I heard that only today (ok yesterday technically!) someone called in to say they'd be late for work because their train was "15" mins late. However LDB showed it was only 2 minutes late. That person is so technophobic that they probably have no idea that something like LDB exists. Fortunately for them the info wasn't passed on to management, but it's a risky and stupid thing to do, as it can so easily be checked.

 

[royaloak]

someone called in to say they'd be late for work because their train was "15" mins late. However LDB showed it was only 2 minutes late. That person is so technophobic that they probably have no idea that something like LDB exists. Fortunately for them the info wasn't passed on to management, but it's a risky and stupid thing to do, as it can so easily be checked.

Had one similar, a woman was on her phone saying the train was 20 minutes late etc, so as I walked past I rather loadly said " I am the guard on the train and it is on time", the look she gave me

 

[Ferret]

Or he could have bought a flexible ticket in the first place, just to be on the safe side!
If it was the railways fault then fair enough let them travel, but if it is somebody else's fault charge them for the appropriate ticket and tell them to claim it back from who-ever caused the delay, I don't see why the railway should loose out because everybody wants the cheapest ticket, but when it goes belly up they then want the flexibility of a more expensive ticket. They cant have it both ways, a friend of mine flies out of Heathrow quite a bit and always buys an open return for the train journey just in case. Now are you saying that the person who buys the cheapest ticket should still get the same flexibility!

The poor bloke had left himself 2 hours from arrival time at airport to departure time on train! Seems entirely reasonable to me to exercise discretion in those circumstances!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The poor bloke had left himself 2 hours from arrival time at airport to departure time on train! Seems entirely reasonable to me to exercise discretion in those circumstances!

On TPE Advance tickets from Manchester Airport (known as Airport Advance due to the slightly different restrictions) you are allowed a 3 hour window for late running planes. Thus if you miss your train you will be allowed to catch another within 3 hours of the booked time.

Passengers wishing to avail themselves of this relaxation are however required to get the ticket stamped at the ticket office prior to boarding the train as they will check and verify that the plane was late.

 

[leedstraindude]

Ive got a query to ask on this subject, one that will apply with me. I'm using my free travel with XC to get to birmingham in a few weeks, and have purchased advance tickets from there on into london with Virgin (cheaper than going from where I live, and cheaper than using priv!)
I have given us 25 mins transfer at New Street, but was wondering where I stand if the XC service is delayed and I miss my booked train?

Has anyone else ever had this before?

 

[John @ home]

On TPE Advance tickets from Manchester Airport ... you are allowed a 3 hour window for late running planes. Thus if you miss your train you will be allowed to catch another within 3 hours of the booked time.

Passengers wishing to avail themselves of this relaxation are however required to get the ticket stamped at the ticket office prior to boarding the train as they will check and verify that the plane was late.

It seems to me that it is only passengers using print-at-home tickets and wishing to use this easement who must have their ticket endorsed in this way. My reading of the terms & conditions is that passengers using any other type of ticket may, if their flight is delayed, use their tickets up to 3 hours after the departure time stated on their ticket (or on the first direct TPE service to their destination after the 3 hour window) without any special procedure.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/special-offers/3/buy-train-tickets-direct-to-manchester-airport.htm

 

[royaloak]

The poor bloke had left himself 2 hours from arrival time at airport to departure time on train! Seems entirely reasonable to me to exercise discretion in those circumstances!

Dont forget about the time taken at the airport to go through customs, collect luggage etc, that will eat into that 2 hours quite significantly, also
planes can be delayed by several hours.
My point is why should the railways be out of pocket.
What would happen if the train was late and he missed his flight?

 

[cuccir]

Dont forget about the time taken at the airport to go through customs, collect luggage etc, that will eat into that 2 hours quite significantly, also
planes can be delayed by several hours.
My point is why should the railways be out of pocket.
What would happen if the train was late and he missed his flight?

Three points:

1. I agree that whilst in theory the railways might be 'out of pocket' letting people take later services, there must almost be some acknowledgement that they also make money where people miss booked services and then buy new tickets. I've no idea whether one cancels the other out, and I imagine there's no way of measuring it, but it's a point that's worth raising nonetheless.

2. Under the current rules, there is nothing obliging the train company to accept a ticket where people are late due to none-rail issues, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should. All that's been noted is that in a lot of people's experience, staff are willing to be flexible to passengers who have experienced a delay beyond their control and have then gone out of their way to ask staff before hand about travelling on a different service.

3. A latent problem - and this is more an opinion of mine rather than objective point, but this is an online forum - is that many passengers seem to feel that it is unfair that those who have bought a ticket and have been delayed are: 1. treated as travellers without tickets and 2. can do nothing to remedy this situation. Offering passengers the chance to (say) upgrade an advance ticket any-time up to 24 hours after its validity, at a ticket office, to another type of ticket, with a % 'administration fee' to ensure that all travellers don't just buy advances knowing that they can then upgrade, would seem much better customer service.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It seems to me that it is only passengers using print-at-home tickets and wishing to use this easement who must have their ticket endorsed in this way. My reading of the terms & conditions is that passengers using any other type of ticket may, if their flight is delayed, use their tickets up to 3 hours after the departure time stated on their ticket (or on the first direct TPE service to their destination after the 3 hour window) without any special procedure.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/special-offers/3/buy-train-tickets-direct-to-manchester-airport.htm

That's not what we are told - our staff briefing says that the endorsement rule applies equally to all sorts of Airport Advance, print at home or conventional tickets.

I hadn't noted that before so shall take this up with the relevant people!

The following is from the Fares Manual pages relating to Airport Advance tickets:

Note

As a special concession customers with an Airport Advance ticket, with an origin of Manchester Airport, if their flight is delayed, will be allowed to travel on the next FTPE service to their destination. This concession is available for up to 3hrs after the departure time of their original service. Or if the next service to their destination is timed to depart more than 3hrs after the original departure time they may use this service.

Customers wishing to take advantage of this concession must have their tickets endorsed at the station ticket office.

Customers who take advantage of this concession will not have a reserved seat on the service.

Customers may NOT travel on an earlier departure than the time stated on their ticket and any customer doing so should be treated as travelling without a valid ticket.

The pages make no mention of this only applying to Print @ Home tickets.