Future of 22x Units

[greatvoyager]

They don’t actually have problems in ordinary “wet weather” do they? However Modern Railways have recently reported that a fix for Dawlish sea spray and heavy waves is currently being trialled and analysed.

I'm looking forward to see if the fix works.

 

[hooverboy]

I wonder if 22x units will ever be cured of their problems in wet weather, specifically the Dawlish sea wall.

I think that's the plan. all 22x environmentally hardened to cope with pretty rough conditions.

 

[greatvoyager]

I think that's the plan. all 22x environmentally hardened to cope with pretty rough conditions.

It would be long overdue, seeing how long they've been in service.

 

[hooverboy]

They don’t actually have problems in ordinary “wet weather” do they? However Modern Railways have recently reported that a fix for Dawlish sea spray and heavy waves is currently being trialled and analysed.

normal wet weather isn't an issue.

when you throw a highly caustic solution into the mix then it gets a bit rougher.

 

[greatvoyager]

normal wet weather isn't an issue.

when you throw a highly caustic solution into the mix then it gets a bit rougher.

If normal wet weather was an issue, there would be significantly more cancellations and more of a priority to find alternatives.

 

[hooverboy]

It would be long overdue, seeing how long they've been in service.

well they've not been disciplined for that route from the beginning have they.

I' don't doubt they will cope,it's just a matter from the maintenance guys of how battle-hardened you want to make these things.
there's 50 odd years of detail with regard to wear and tear of different body types in that region, probably a good place to start.

should also say that the air intake around dawlish is not so much oxygen/nitrogen as a sodium hydroxide mix...its powerful stuff.

 

[greatvoyager]

well they've not been disciplined for that route from the beginning have they.

I' don't doubt they will cope,it's just a matter from the maintenance guys of how battle-hardened you want to make these things.
there's 50 odd years of detail with regard to wear and tear of different body types in that region, probably a good place to start.

They must be due a refurb soon, so perhaps it will be sorted in time so that any fix can be applied at that point.

 

[hooverboy]

I think all the 22x units are due a mid-life refurb.
would seem a good opportunity to add reinforcements as required

 

[greatvoyager]

I think all the 22x units are due a mid-life refurb.
would seem a good opportunity to add reinforcements as required

Totally agree with that.

 

[swt_passenger]

They must be due a refurb soon, so perhaps it will be sorted in time so that any fix can be applied at that point.

It’s a software fix according to Modern Railways. It wouldn’t necessarily need to wait for a refurb.

 

[greatvoyager]

It’s a software fix according to Modern Railways. It wouldn’t necessarily need to wait for a refurb.

I know, was just suggesting that is the fix is finalised around about the time they start getting refurbished that they could install it then. Then again if it's just software they cab probably install it during routine maintenance.

 

[greatvoyager]

If the 222s do end up with XC, will they still be called meridians, or will they just be referred to as a new voyager?

 

[greatvoyager]

With so many 22x trains coming off lease, it seems increasingly like not all of them will find a new home.

 

[The Ham]

With so many 22x trains coming off lease, it seems increasingly like not all of them will find a new home.

Which is part of my thinking that we could end up with some of the end coaches being scrapped and the units being lengthened.

It also, depending on the length, it solves the issue of not being able to run the 222's with the Voyager fleets, as the 222's could just be 7+ coaches long and therefore not need to run in pairs with anything in normal service.

 

[greatvoyager]

Which is part of my thinking that we could end up with some of the end coaches being scrapped and the units being lengthened.

It also, depending on the length, it solves the issue of not being able to run the 222's with the Voyager fleets, as the 222's could just be 7+ coaches long and therefore not need to run in pairs with anything in normal service.

One assumes 222s will be the units that are surplus.

 

[greatvoyager]

I hope the 22x units don't get downgraded to regional services. If they are fuel hungry on their current duties, frequent stop and start routes are probably worse.

 

[greatvoyager]

Which is part of my thinking that we could end up with some of the end coaches being scrapped and the units being lengthened.

It also, depending on the length, it solves the issue of not being able to run the 222's with the Voyager fleets, as the 222's could just be 7+ coaches long and therefore not need to run in pairs with anything in normal service.

Also, I wonder if 222s will have a higher leasing price than 220s/221s, as there are less of them and they are owned by a different company.

 

[Energy]

Also, I wonder if 222s will have a higher leasing price than 220s/221s, as there are less of them and they are owned by a different company.

Depends on the purchase prise, they may be cheaper to buy as Bombardier would have already made lots of the tooling.

 

[greatvoyager]

Depends on the purchase prise, they may be cheaper to buy as Bombardier would have already made lots of the tooling.

That makes sense.

 

[Meerkat]

Depends on the purchase prise, they may be cheaper to buy as Bombardier would have already made lots of the tooling.

The future leasing price will have nothing to do with the cost of building the things, it will just be as high as they can find a TOC to pay. Unless that is less than scrapping of course.....

 

[greatvoyager]

The future leasing price will have nothing to do with the cost of building the things, it will just be as high as they can find a TOC to pay. Unless that is less than scrapping of course.....

And as XC is the only real option, that could be a problem.

 

[greatvoyager]

I hope if there is another refresh or refurb, we see the interiors change from the virgin colours.

 

[tbtc]

Which is part of my thinking that we could end up with some of the end coaches being scrapped and the units being lengthened

You keep suggesting this...

...but put yourself in the ROSCOs position. Say they have a hundred coaches to lease.

You want to only lease ninety, leaving ten end cars unwanted. That then costs the ROSCO more money in storage etc, since they have an unwanted asset (nobody is going to hire just the end cars, so they are essentially going to be a drain on the ROSCO resources - still of some value since they could be used in future if the trains are reformed - they aren't going to just scrap them straight away).

So leasing ninety carriages might cost more than leasing a hundred - the ROSCO don't want to be lumbered with the remainder.

 

[greatvoyager]

You keep suggesting this...

...but put yourself in the ROSCOs position. Say they have a hundred coaches to lease.

You want to only lease ninety, leaving ten end cars unwanted. That then costs the ROSCO more money in storage etc, since they have an unwanted asset (nobody is going to hire just the end cars, so they are essentially going to be a drain on the ROSCO resources - still of some value since they could be used in future if the trains are reformed - they aren't going to just scrap them straight away).

So leasing ninety carriages might cost more than leasing a hundred - the ROSCO don't want to be lumbered with the remainder.

I agree, the priority is to lease whole trains.

 

[greatvoyager]

One problem I've just thought of is that if 222s were made compatible, it would be difficult to schedule them because there interiors are different so the seating plans wouldn't match up.

 

[greatvoyager]

22x units look very restricted in which routes or companies they can work for.

 

[The Ham]

You keep suggesting this...

...but put yourself in the ROSCOs position. Say they have a hundred coaches to lease.

You want to only lease ninety, leaving ten end cars unwanted. That then costs the ROSCO more money in storage etc, since they have an unwanted asset (nobody is going to hire just the end cars, so they are essentially going to be a drain on the ROSCO resources - still of some value since they could be used in future if the trains are reformed - they aren't going to just scrap them straight away).

So leasing ninety carriages might cost more than leasing a hundred - the ROSCO don't want to be lumbered with the remainder.

However on the other side of the coin you have the TOC's who don't want to lease a coach which has 1/2 the number of seats in our and then have to have extra staff to run the services as you need staff in both parts of the train.

That then means that you've got a choice go for a new train, quite possibly an 80x which would also save you money in fuel costs as well as giving you a higher capacity unit for the same number of coaches, or have an older train which could have higher maintenance costs (case in point the 1/3 saving in maintained costs on the Desiro City fort over the original).

Even then there's the fact that is you are refurbishing the 22x fleet not having to do 10% of your fleet keeps those costs down. There's also nothing stopping you scraping those end coaches as at the very least the end coaches from the 4 coach units wouldn't be missed. However, there's a good chance that the 22x's are going to be circa 30 years old when they get dropped from the next lease. That's not that far off the typically accepted age of a DMU of 35. As such if they all get scrapped at that point that's not really going to cause much of a problem of you then scrap a few middle coaches early.

Anyway if you don't lease any of them that's 100 coaches to store and not 10 with 90 earning you an income.

 

[Glenn1969]

Pity 4 and 5 car Voyagers can't be cascaded to the North to help increase rolling stock availability

 

[greatvoyager]

I still think scrapping end cars is a bad idea. Not all intermediate cars are the same, and considering that carriages had to be swapped between the 7-car 222s when they were reformed because of the placement of electrical equipment suggests certain carriages may have to be swapped around to reform all 22x units into longer trains. It would be a big job to do.

 

[Energy]

I'd argue that binning the end coaches isn't a too far stretch of the imagination. The ROSCO would rather have a few end cars not in service than the entire fleet. Doesn't mean that 2 x 5 car isn't simpler though.