Wales - North / South links

[MontyP]

Interesting interview with Plaid Cymru leader in the Guardian today: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ans-wales-railway-to-boost-economy-adam-price

What ideas are floating around for better north/south links for Wales? How would reopening Carmarthen-Aberystwyth do anything to improve Cardiff-Holyhead journey times? What new line could avoid the need to go into England (!) twice on the route?

I think some journeys in Austria (e.g. Innsbruck-Salzburg) are routed through Germany so his assertion is incorrect that rail travel between parts of Wales is unique in routing via another country. I'm sure people can think of other examples?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But then Wales is not a separate country...
The cross-border Marches line is already part of the Wales and Borders franchise and the Wales Network Rail route, and the WG controls the spend on the whole route.
It is also due to be signalled throughout from Cardiff.
It can't get much more Welsh.

 

[Envoy]

It is ridiculous of Price to go on about the line from Newport to north Wales having to go into England - thus serving Hereford, Ludlow, Shrewsbury, Wrexham and Chester before going along the north Wales coast. The very reason why the Victorians chose this route was to avoid the mountains that lie just to the west - as well as serve bigger centres of population. The Marches Line also serves as the main (shortest & fastest) link between the south Wales and NW England (Manchester, Liverpool etc) & via a change at Crewe, Scotland.

The Victorians did indeed build single track lines through the more mountainous part of Wales. Indeed, The Brecon Mountain Railway does today use one such route for a short distance. It was possible to then go up the Wye Valley to Builth Wells and then Rhayader & through the hills to Llanidloes before joining the Cambrian Line at Moat Lane Junction near Caersws. Even if we were to re-build such a route today, I am sure it would be impossible to reach reach Caersws in anything like the time it takes using The Marches Line to Shrewsbury and then the Cambrian Line. The Marches Line also is far more viable because it links the aforementioned conurbations and is twin track.

Price talks a bit more sense when he mentions re-building Carmarthen to Aberystwyth - which should never have been closed. However, even here, it would be impossible to get decent line speeds over much of the route - especially the first bit going N from Carmarthen - as can be witnessed by taking a ride on The Gwili Heritage Railway. Another problem would be getting into Aberystwyth - where you would either have to demolish newly built properties on the old bed or build an expensive tunnel. Likewise, it would also be difficult to link the Cambrian Line at Afon Wen near Pwllheli with Caernarfon and Bangor. (They are now building a Caernarfon by-pass which takes no account of allowances for a potential rail route). I should also add that whilst Price favours such rail developments in the sparsely populated west, Plaid Cymru are against building a new M4 south of Newport to avoid the choke point at the tunnel. If anything is a brake on the economy of southern Wales, it must surely be the delays caused by this tunnel?

Price also is against HS2. Surely, with a new high speed line from London to Birmingham, it would give faster access to mid - Wales whist the continued HS2 to Crewe would favour north Wales? Perhaps Plaid Cymru do not want Wales to have faster links with London?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It is ridiculous of Price to go on about the line from Newport to north Wales having to go into England - thus serving Hereford, Ludlow, Shrewsbury, Wrexham and Chester before going along the north Wales coast. The very reason why the Victorians chose this route was to avoid the mountains that lie just to the west - as well as serve bigger centres of population. The Marches Line also serves as the main (shortest & fastest) link between the south Wales and NW England (Manchester, Liverpool etc) & via a change at Crewe, Scotland.

The Victorians did indeed build single track lines through the more mountainous part of Wales. Indeed, The Brecon Mountain Railway does today use one such route for a short distance. It was possible to then go up the Wye Valley to Builth Wells and then Rhayader & through the hills to Llanidloes before joining the Cambrian Line at Moat Lane Junction near Caersws. Even if we were to re-build such a route today, I am sure it would be impossible to reach reach Caersws in anything like the time it takes using The Marches Line to Shrewsbury and then the Cambrian Line. The Marches Line also is far more viable because it links the aforementioned conurbations and is twin track.

Price talks a bit more sense when he mentions re-building Carmarthen to Aberystwyth - which should never have been closed. However, even here, it would be impossible to get decent line speeds over much of the route - especially the first bit going N from Carmarthen - as can be witnessed by taking a ride on The Gwili Heritage Railway. Another problem would be getting into Aberystwyth - where you would either have to demolish newly built properties on the old bed or build an expensive tunnel. Likewise, it would also be difficult to link the Cambrian Line at Afon Wen near Pwllheli with Caernarfon and Bangor. (They are now building a Caernarfon by-pass which takes no account of allowances for a potential rail route). I should also add that whilst Price favours such rail developments in the sparsely populated west, Plaid Cymru are against building a new M4 south of Newport to avoid the choke point at the tunnel. If anything is a brake on the economy of southern Wales, it must surely be the delays caused by this tunnel?

Price also is against HS2. Surely, with a new high speed line from London to Birmingham, it would give faster access to mid - Wales whist the continued HS2 to Crewe would favour north Wales? Perhaps Plaid Cymru do not want Wales to have faster links with London?

A well argued post - but then Plaid has a grand total of 4 seats , with unsurprisingly greater support in the rural West. Not surprising that focus is that way , though as you say - for Wales to thrive as part of the UK economy then the emphasis on better links to England (and overseas) would earn far more benefits.

Perhaps a hand picked selection of people from this group could do a half day briefing to Mr Price (who comes over very well on the radio , and never fails to mention Offa's Dyke !) as to the historical legacy of the Welsh network and an off the brief commentary on where present operations might be developed.

 

[Llanigraham]

There are a group of current and ex-railway workers, including a historian, locally who are already bending the ear of Plaid hierarchy about the white elephant that Carmarthen Aberystwyth would be.

 

[30907]

Cross-reference to this long-running (or not-running?) thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/carmarthen-to-aberystwyth-reopening.109071/page-44

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/carmarthen-to-aberystwyth-reopening.109071/page-44

Journeys in Austria (e.g. Innsbruck-Salzburg) are routed through Germany so his assertion is incorrect that rail travel between parts of Wales is unique in routing via another country. I'm sure people can think of other examples?

That's the most important one. Innsbruck to Lienz in East Tirol (post 1918) and Reutte on the German border (no longer a through service) are the main Austrian examples, though there were a couple of minor ones on the Hungarian and Slovenian borders. The area round Zittau in Germany/CZ/PL has been referenced recently in the International forum.

 

[JKF]

Cheaper to raise an army and invade Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester. They’ll be grateful for the free prescriptions.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Cheaper to raise an army and invade Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester. They’ll be grateful for the free prescriptions.

Not to mention reduced university costs.

Abolition of tolls on the Severn Crossing has apparently led to a 15% increase in road traffic on the M4 corridor around there. Shows where the bigger issues are.

Perhaps Mr Price could get some local quick wins - and kudos - by doing something on the Heart of Wales - specifically the south end towards Llandeilo and even a shuttle into Ammanford (Town) - extant track etc etc.

 

[Envoy]

A pity that this thread has been moved to ‘Speculative Ideas’ from the main forum as few people will bother to read it here. Perhaps that was the intention as ‘Speculative Ideas’ does not even appear in the main menu. It is not just about the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth potential link but also other matters are covered such as HS2 - according to Price - being of no use to Wales plus the fact that The Marches Line goes into England. You could hardly classify this thread as ‘Speculative Ideas’!

 

[markymark2000]

The thing is that a substantial amount of Wales traffic is towards England and not north-south of the country (or vice versa). If you avoid England, you avoid the major interchange points for passengers thus vastly reducing the potential passenger usage.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The thing is that a substantial amount of Wales traffic is towards England and not north-south of the country (or vice versa). If you avoid England, you avoid the major interchange points for passengers thus vastly reducing the potential passenger usage.

Of course - (and discussed before) - South Wales looks to Bristol and London , Mid Wales to the West Midlands and North Wales to Merseyside and Manchester. When what became ATW was let - way back - there was considerable work done on Welsh and Wales to rest of the UK flows which very clearly showed that. (as well as the considerable flows within the more urbanised areas)

The total flows from North to South (via the Marches and to an extent the HoW) was considerably less - around a couple of thousand passenger journeys a day. I suppose "chicken and egg" arguments apply - clearly something there - but the debate is how far do you go to cater for it ? A good debate to have. The Cardiff -Manchester axis has always been regarded as one of the best routes for patronage and therefore revenue potential.

 

[tbtc]

Maybe the fact that there's no north-south dual carriageway in Wales suggests that, erm, there's not that many people making north-south journeys wholly inside Wales? What next - divert the A483 to stop it from entering England?

(I know a few people who regularly use the Supertram from Halfway/ Crystal Peaks into central Sheffield and I'm not aware of any of them getting their knickers in a twist that the journey between two places in northern England strays into the midlands when it crosses the border into Derbyshire)

But, if the WAG want to focus on Holyhead - Cardiff then maybe we should let them - they can hand over the relatively lucrative Crewe/ Chester - Manchester bits of the franchise to another TOC if they so desire - and good luck to them.

It is not just about the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth potential link but also other matters are covered such as HS2 - according to Price - being of no use to Wales

Does it matter if HS2 is no use to Wales?

I mean, I'd have thought it obvious that faster trains from London to Birmingham/ Crewe would permit faster journeys to Wales, but let's pretend that HS2 is of absolutely no benefit to Wales whatsoever... but few Government projects are of benefit to absolutely everyone and absolutely everywhere.

Electrifying the GWML to Cardiff wasn't much use to those of us in Yorkshire, for example, but I was still in favour.

The "I'm against HS2 because it doesn't directly benefit me" argument can be applied to pretty much everything.

I suspect it's just an excuse to try to claim some additional funding, if he can get HS2 classed as "English" rather than "UK" spending - always about the money...