Fantasy: Retrofit 225s for WCML Open Access Operations

[Speed43125]

As we know there have been plans for from Virgin, Grand Union, Grand Central etc. to operate open access services along the WCML. Most of these proposals seem to be in favour of using non-tilting Mk4 stock. So why not as designed retrofit them with tilting equipment which would create trains able to keep speed with Pendos, and not be stuck at 105, 110, then back to 100, then 105 then 110 again etc .
Since we've lost a few DVTs to TfW, we could always top and tail with 91s etc. if 91s are not able to accelerate fast enough compared to all the other MU stock on the WCML.

 

[coradiafan2000]

As we know there have been plans for from Virgin, Grand Union, Grand Central etc. to operate open access services along the WCML. Most of these proposals seem to be in favour of using non-tilting Mk4 stock. So why not as designed retrofit them with tilting equipment which would create trains able to keep speed with Pendos, and not be stock at 105, 110, then back to 100, then 105 then 110 again etc .
Since we've lost a few DVTs to TfW, we could always top and tail with 91s etc. if 91s are not able to accelerate fast enough compared to all the other MU stock on the WCML.

A top and tailed 225 set sounds fantastic, a top and tailed 225 set that can also tilt sounds like my dream train, which means it'd be too good to be true and therefore won't likely happen.

I feel like anyone who is willing to use 91s won't want to bother with the added cost of retrofitting them with tilting equipment, it would probably be too much money for not enough benefits . I hate how money gets in the way of fun stuff like this.

 

[swt_passenger]

I feel like anyone who is willing to use 91s won't want to bother with the added cost of retrofitting them with tilting equipment, it would probably be too much money for not enough benefits . I hate how money gets in the way of fun stuff like this.

AIUI the Class 91s wouldn’t ever have tilted anyway, it would have been the Mk 4 sets only, for passenger comfort.

But it’s an academic point as you say, there’s no realistic likelihood of Mk 4s being fitted after all this time, and previous discussions suggest no-one is intending to use 91s anyway.

 

[coradiafan2000]

AIUI the Class 91s wouldn’t ever have tilted anyway, it would have been the Mk 4 sets only, for passenger comfort.

But it’s an academic point as you say, there’s no realistic likelihood of Mk 4s being fitted after all this time, and previous discussions suggest no-one is intending to use 91s anyway.

Grand Union Trains still want to use them between Cardiff and London, at least according to their website.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Grand Union Trains still want to use them between Cardiff and London, at least according to their website.

Application result has not been announced yet the process takes along time.

 

[swt_passenger]

Grand Union Trains still want to use them between Cardiff and London, at least according to their website.

Highly unlikely. The bloke proposes far more open access than ever actually happens, it’ll almost certainly fail on revenue extraction.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Application result has not been announced yet the process takes along time.

Highly unlikely. The bloke proposes far more open access than ever actually happens, it’ll almost certainly fail on revenue extraction.

You're a pessimistic bunch. But also realistic unfortunately.

Regardless of what happens to Grand Union, I still think the 91s have a future. They could still run on the WCML as the OP suggests, or they could maybe run freight. Perhaps even the Caledonian sleeper when their 86s and 90s kick the bucket.

 

[swt_passenger]

You're a pessimistic bunch. But also realistic unfortunately.

Regardless of what happens to Grand Union, I still think the 91s have a future. They could still run on the WCML as the OP suggests, or they could maybe run freight. Perhaps even the Caledonian sleeper when their 86s and 90s kick the bucket.

The sleeper uses 92s...

 

[NoMorePacers]

The sleeper uses 92s...

Which are newer than 91s and have had a much less intensive life.

As nice as 91s on the Sleeper would be.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Which are newer than 91s and have had a much less intensive life.

As nice as 91s on the Sleeper would be.

I was thinking more as a back up in case they fail or are unavailable.

 

[coradiafan2000]

The sleeper uses 92s...

I know the Sleeper uses 92s, but they still have 90s in their fleet, even an 87.

 

[swt_passenger]

I know the Sleeper uses 92s, but they still have 90s in their fleet, even an 87.

They aren’t there to provide variety for enthusiasts though.

 

[Aictos]

Question for @The Planner and co but when Virgin Trains used to operate the Class 90 and Mk3s on the Birmingham route did it have to timed to run slower or did it keep time with the Class 390 timings (with timetable slack allowing for this).

Because if Mk3s can keep time on the Birmingham’s, could it not be feasible for a fleet of Class 91s or another loco type if need be to run with Mk4s on the Birmingham route freeing up Class 390s to bolster the Anglo Scottish routes?

 

[coradiafan2000]

They aren’t there to provide variety for enthusiasts though.

I know! Just let me have my fun OK?!? It seems a waste to just send these locos to be scrapped. Is it really more expensive to properly maintain them than it is to order new electric locos for the future? I know they'll have to be replaced eventually but the 86s have had double the lifespan and are still at least used on freight services.

 

[swt_passenger]

I know! Just let me have my fun OK?!? It seems a waste to just send these locos to be scrapped. Is it really more expensive to properly maintain them than it is to order new electric locos for the future? I know they'll have to be replaced eventually but the 86s have had double the lifespan and are still at least used on freight services.

Just because 86s are older it doesn’t mean they are less suitable. Replacing an 86 or 90 with a 91 just because it’s slightly newer doesn’t necessarily achieve better performance. There've been numerous previous discussions about this, but 91s fill a very small niche and are basically not the answer to any current problem...

 

[coradiafan2000]

Just because 86s are older it doesn’t mean they are less suitable. Replacing an 86 or 90 with a 91 just because it’s slightly newer doesn’t necessarily achieve better performance. There've been numerous previous discussions about this, but 91s fill a very small niche and are basically not the answer to any current problem...

"Slightly" being 20 years...

I'll admit I don't know the specifics of why the 91s are such a niche train. Could you please explain why they aren't as suitable as other locos? I'm confused as to why they don't seem to be suitable for anything beyond their original job on the ECML.

 

[swt_passenger]

"Slightly" being 20 years...

I'll admit I don't know the specifics of why the 91s are such a niche train. Could you please explain why they aren't as suitable as other locos? I'm confused as to why they don't seem to be suitable for anything beyond their original job on the ECML.

I’d have to read all the previous discussions. Basically 91s are mechanically geared for only one job, fast passenger trains running at 125 mph on the ECML. That doesn’t make them suitable for general freight use. There’s other people who can go into more technical detail about tractive forces and stuff...

 

[coradiafan2000]

I’d have to read all the previous discussions. Basically 91s are mechanically geared for only one job, fast passenger trains running at 125 mph on the ECML. That doesn’t make them suitable for general freight use. There’s other people who can go into more technical detail about tractive forces and stuff...

Could they be re geared? Or would that also be too costly?

 

[swt_passenger]

Could they be re geared? Or would that also be too costly?

Anything can be done if money is available. I think there’s an export plan involving re-gearing, but no domestic requirement that I’ve heard of.

 

[greatvoyager]

They aren’t there to provide variety for enthusiasts though.

Regardless of whether or not their here to provide variety, there surely can be no harm in trying it out?
Even if 91s may seem entirely unsuitable for a job or just a fantasy, if they were tried and they provided more efficiency or longer service life, maybe some would be open to that idea.

 

[swt_passenger]

Regardless of whether or not their here to provide variety, there surely can be no harm in trying it out?
Even if 91s may seem entirely unsuitable for a job or just a fantasy, if they were tried and they provided more efficiency or longer service life, maybe some would be open to that idea.

But the people who need to know will already have the answer to that from their existing knowledge...

 

[greatvoyager]

But the people who need to know will already have the answer to that from their existing knowledge...

If it's a case of them being re-geared, that's already happening for European operations. Rail Operations Group have also expressed interest on using 91 on frieght duties too.

 

[Speed43125]

The interesting design of the 91 with underhung transformer creates a mass of space inside the loco, Electro-diesel conversion?
Coupled with re-gear for 88-easque last mile freight sidings stuff

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I know the Sleeper uses 92s, but they still have 90s in their fleet, even an 87.

They don't I'm afraid; the 90s and 87 ( and 86 ) finished a couple of months ago when the Highlander switched to Mk5 stock.

 

[coradiafan2000]

They don't I'm afraid; the 90s and 87 ( and 86 ) finished a couple of months ago when the Highlander switched to Mk5 stock.

Awwwww

 

[swt_passenger]

If it's a case of them being re-geared, that's already happening for European operations...

Yes, I mentioned that in post #19