Could changes be made to allow on board human ticket sales to end?

[Llanigraham]

And still none of the supporters of this "scheme" have supplied an explanation of how this Smartcard (?) is going to get money on it and at what amount by the passenger for long distance journeys.
As said above this is a solution looking for a problem.

 

[ashkeba]

The whole thing strikes me as a solution in search of a problem. Urban commuter routes where this is likely to be workable (since the fares structure is very simple) likely already have TVMs and/or ticket offices capable of selling the tickets before boarding. And on rural routes where at-station ticket vending facilities are difficult to provide, on-board ticket sales are hardly an issue presently.

This is not my experience in the Cambridge area. Here are rural routes and long queues for ticket machines at outlying stations (some compounded by the level crossing problem discussed in another thread) when they work at all. Sun and rain on the schreens at these exposed stations often seem to cause failures, as well as them often rejecting some payment methods. Combine that with a random chance of dispute/punishment if you board without a ticket despite the badly-sited unofficial-looking warning notices and the train company worker does not believe the ticket machine had failed. So I feel there is a problem, although I welcome experiences from other small-station areas. On-train tap-in/out may not be the best solution, but it is a solution.

 

[ashkeba]

And still none of the supporters of this "scheme" have supplied an explanation of how this Smartcard (?) is going to get money on it and at what amount by the passenger for long distance journeys.
As said above this is a solution looking for a problem.

Do you really not know how contactless payment cards get money on them? Or how fares are set? Either you take a payment card with sufficient funds on it for the journey or you load a ticket onto a smart card. Maybe there would be cash smart cards but it is not a necessary requirement.

Do you really not find it disappointing that the UK seems incapable of any implementation of any whole-network reusable tickets and the default is still wasting card?

 

[edwin_m]

This is not my experience in the Cambridge area. Here are rural routes and long queues for ticket machines at outlying stations (some compounded by the level crossing problem discussed in another thread) when they work at all. Sun and rain on the schreens at these exposed stations often seem to cause failures, as well as them often rejecting some payment methods. Combine that with a random chance of dispute/punishment if you board without a ticket despite the badly-sited unofficial-looking warning notices and the train company worker does not believe the ticket machine had failed. So I feel there is a problem, although I welcome experiences from other small-station areas. On-train tap-in/out may not be the best solution, but it is a solution.

If there are queues for TVMs at stations then it's virtually certain that a conductor wouldn't be able to sell tickets for people boarding at a station before the train reaches the next one. Tap on and off may be part of the solution but it's better implemented on platforms (as every operator with a smartcard system in the UK has done) rather than on train.

But TVMs are probably still needed for those boarding at well-used stations who want something other than a simple A to B ticket within the validity of the tap-on tap-off area. If you have a conductor selling those more complicated tickets then people have a valid reason to board without either buying a ticket or tapping on. Ticket sales by conductor should be limited to very quiet stations where a TVM would be unviable and the passenger numbers are low enough that the conductor is virtually certain to be able to sell tickets to everyone. I don't see any problem with having conductor sales at some stations and prepayment needed at others on the same route.

 

[najaB]

So I feel there is a problem, although I welcome experiences from other small-station areas. On-train tap-in/out may not be the best solution, but it is a solution.

Then designate them as pay trains - allow purchase on board or at your destination.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems to me that simply identifying some services as "pay trains" would achieve the same (or better) result at zero cost.

With barriers etc returning to 1980s levels, I think I'd suggest that returning to formal Paytrains shown as such in the timetable would definitely be the way to go to make things clear as to when you can pay onboard and when you can't.

If the guard knows he won't get round he could hand out "Paytrain Permits to Travel" from a pad or somesuch far more quickly, so proof is held on reaching a barrier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there are queues for TVMs at stations then it's virtually certain that a conductor wouldn't be able to sell tickets for people boarding at a station before the train reaches the next one

That's not necessarily an issue - mostly people are going to the interchange, not the next stop. The odd single to the next stop might actually be cheaper to let go than provide the facilities for its sale.

 

[edwin_m]

That's not necessarily an issue - mostly people are going to the interchange, not the next stop. The odd single to the next stop might actually be cheaper to let go than provide the facilities for its sale.

If the conductor can't get down between each station and the next, there is also the risk of people asking for a ticket from the last stop when in fact they boarded earlier. And if one stop is too busy for that, then the next few stops probably are as well, and the conductor basically has no chance.

That's one reason I believe the threshold for TVMs should be if there isn't time between that stop and the next one for the conductor to get all the way through the train and sell/check tickets for the number of people normally boarding on the busiest train from that stop. The conductor also has a better chance of remembering who got on at the last stop, so it's less likely someone can get away with not offering to buy or pretending to be asleep.

 

[yorkie]

Do you really not find it disappointing that the UK seems incapable of any implementation of any whole-network reusable tickets and the default is still wasting card?

Actually there is a big drive towards e-tickets at the moment; several retailers have already switched the default to e-tickets and many more are following.

There is no need to load a single/return/day ticket onto a smart card.

 

[Belperpete]

If the conductor can't get down between each station and the next, there is also the risk of people asking for a ticket from the last stop when in fact they boarded earlier. And if one stop is too busy for that, then the next few stops probably are as well, and the conductor basically has no chance.

I rather like the system in use on the metro around Gdansk. Passengers without tickets are clearly instructed to board the rear coach, where the conductor sells tickets. You can move up the train once you have bought your ticket. Once the conductor has finished selling tickets in the rear coach, he checks that people in the other coaches have tickets (whether they get fined if they don't, I am not sure).

 

[Llanigraham]

Do you really not know how contactless payment cards get money on them?

I know exactly how my Oyster card works, thank you.
Each time I go up to London I guess how many journeys I am going to make and how much those (Zone1) journeys are going to cost, and add no more than £10 if needed.

Or how fares are set?

Haven't a clue and why should I?
I fail to see the relevance.

Either you take a payment card with sufficient funds on it for the journey

And what will be "sufficient funds"?
My journey to London can use 4 or more routes, all with different fares, depending on route, operator and time of day.

or you load a ticket onto a smart card.

Err?? Isn't that the same as just buying a ticket but more complicated?
I thought we were trying to make life EASIER and LESS complicated for the passenger?

Maybe there would be cash smart cards but it is not a necessary requirement.

And I could just have cash in my pocket or on my bank credit card!

Do you really not find it disappointing that the UK seems incapable of any implementation of any whole-network reusable tickets and the default is still wasting card?

No.
What I do find disappointing is that people are trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and are trying to make the system MORE complicated.

 

[ashkeba]

Just because you don't suffer the problem does not mean the problem doesn't exist.

Actually there is a big drive towards e-tickets at the moment; several retailers have already switched the default to e-tickets and many more are following.

There is no need to load a single/return/day ticket onto a smart card.

Do you have a link to this, please? National Rail's website offers a link that simply returns me to the ticket sales page. I didn't find anything on Greater Anglia's site. Great Northern have The Key smartcard but it does not cover Cambridge yet and does not allow railcard discounts.

The reason to load tickets on to smart cards is to stop wasting paper, but to allow use of tickets which are not what the automatic selection would be.

 

[py_megapixel]

My overall thought is that the abolition of human on-board sales would be at best unnecessary change, and at worst detrimental.
The DOO debate is not something I want to get into particularly, but though door operation can be debated, having someone on the train to assist passengers can never be a bad thing.

If you want to override the default, buy a ticket elsewhere.

The problem with this policy is that it discourages use of the train. Part the appeal is the ability to just walk down to the station and hop on a train, buying whatever ticket is needed actually at the station rather than beforehand. Ticket offices are not, and will never be, open 24/7, and ticket machines are unreliable and difficult for some to use.

Actually there is a big drive towards e-tickets at the moment; several retailers have already switched the default to e-tickets and many more are following.

Yes, but not everyone can use them. It is not a requirement to travel by train to own a smartphone to display your ticket, a printer to print it, a credit/debit card to pay for it etc.
I am of the opinion that, as long as cash survives in mainstream use, cash payment for public transport will need to survive. I am firmly against TfL's policy of charging double cash fares.

Either you take a payment card with sufficient funds on it for the journey or you load a ticket onto a smart card. Maybe there would be cash smart cards but it is not a necessary requirement.

It is a necessary requirement, because children cannot be issued credit cards. Some kids' bank accounts are now starting to offer debit cards, but many parents don't want their children to have this much responsibility, or risk if it is lost.
As for loading tickets onto smartcards, I still cannot figure out how to put anything shorter than a weekly season ticket onto my ITSO card. Unless this flaw is fixed. I will not be switching over.

 

[ashkeba]

My overall thought is that the abolition of human on-board sales would be at best unnecessary change, and at worst detrimental.[...]

I agree. Only the naughty moderator suggested it.

The problem with this policy is that it discourages use of the train. Part the appeal is the ability to just walk down to the station and hop on a train, buying whatever ticket is needed actually at the station rather than beforehand. Ticket offices are not, and will never be, open 24/7, and ticket machines are unreliable and difficult for some to use.

I agree that having to find working ticket offices or machines discourages use of trains. We are not allowed to just walk down to the station and hop on a train around here. Onboard tap-in/out machines would bring that ability back.

As for loading tickets onto smartcards, I still cannot figure out how to put anything shorter than a weekly season ticket onto my ITSO card. Unless this flaw is fixed. I will not be switching over.

Yes, UK train smartcards do not seem to work properly yet. I think the regulator should step in because the market seems to be failing to deliver for customers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that having to find working ticket offices or machines discourages use of trains. We are not allowed to just walk down to the station and hop on a train around here. Onboard tap-in/out machines would bring that ability back.

Or just buy an e-ticket on your phone, if the TOC offers it. If they don't, they need to sort the mess out pronto as there is really no excuse.

 

[Llanigraham]

I agree that having to find working ticket offices or machines discourages use of trains. We are not allowed to just walk down to the station and hop on a train around here.

Doesn't seem to discourage passengers around here, considering the growth in passenger numbers at my local station!

Onboard tap-in/out machines would bring that ability back.

And several of us have pointed out that this "system" does nothing to make life easier for passengers, and in fact makes it MORE complicated, and would be both very expensive and technically difficult.

Yes, UK train smartcards do not seem to work properly yet. I think the regulator should step in because the market seems to be failing to deliver for customers.

Have the customers been asked if they want a more complicated system?

And as asked above, how are you going to design this system so it can be used by children?

 

[ashkeba]

Or just buy an e-ticket on your phone, if the TOC offers it. If they don't, they need to sort the mess out pronto as there is really no excuse.

I tried (see above) but did not find if any here do. (GN, GA and a few XC)

 

[ashkeba]

And several of us have pointed out that this "system" does nothing to make life easier for passengers, and in fact makes it MORE complicated, and would be both very expensive and technically difficult.

Some have pointed things out based on assumptions ans worst case scenarios. Maybe it would be expensive and technically difficult, but we don't know until someone looks at it properly.

Have the customers been asked if they want a more complicated system?

It would be simpler and I understand that smartcards and etickets are quite popular with customers before they see the reality of UK railway smartcards and etickets!

And as asked above, how are you going to design this system so it can be used by children?

Just make sure some of the tap pads are where they can reach them?

 

[najaB]

Some have pointed things out based on assumptions ans worst case scenarios. Maybe it would be expensive and technically difficult, but we don't know until someone looks at it properly.

I assure you, this is an idea that has been looked at by top men. Top. Men.

 

[py_megapixel]

Just make sure some of the tap pads are where they can reach them?

This isn't the issue. What is the issue is that most children do not have (and cannot get) payment cards, and that the system of loading tickets on a card under an ITSO-style system is just another step of complication.

 

[ashkeba]

This isn't the issue. What is the issue is that most children do not have (and cannot get) payment cards, and that the system of loading tickets on a card under an ITSO-style system is just another step of complication.

Yes, ITSO-style systems sound complicated. I haven't even find info on one I can use in Cambridge. So I tap my payment card on buses. I don't know if the smart cards the Stagecoach buses hand over when you buy some tickets are ITSO or not.

How about an OV-chipkaart style system? Instead of ticket offices or machines printing on paper, they hand over a smartcard or you tap your current one on a pad.

How do the Oyster Children cards work if children are not allowed smartcards in the UK?

 

[A Challenge]

Children can have problems getting debit cards (and credit cards are not available for under 18s) not smartcards, the. Also,h is the issue of Railcards and Child fares going sorted for Contactless cards, I gather it is possible for TfL to do something yet they don't, there must be a reason?

 

[sprunt]

I assure you, this is an idea that has been looked at by top men. Top. Men.

Indeed. And in tens, if not hundreds of places around the world they have successfully implemented solutions, so throwing hands in the air and decrying it as impossible isn't going to impress anybody.

 

[najaB]

And in tens, if not hundreds of places around the world they have successfully implemented solutions, so throwing hands in the air and decrying it as impossible isn't going to impress anybody.

How many countries have implemented similar solutions on a national scale, with a fares system as complex as ours.

As noted in my first contribution to the thread, tap in/tap out works well for zonal of flat fares. Anything more than that is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many countries have implemented similar solutions on a national scale, with a fares system as complex as ours.

As noted in my first contribution to the thread, tap in/tap out works well for zonal of flat fares. Anything more than that is a recipe for disaster.

It works terribly for zonal fares - TfL has all sorts of cack-handed workarounds to that. What it works well for is simple point to point single fares (which can vary by touch in time) in a closed (fully barriered) system.

 

[najaB]

It works terribly for zonal fares - TfL has all sorts of cack-handed workarounds to that. What it works well for is simple point to point single fares (which can vary by touch in time) in a closed (fully barriered) system.

It can work well with zonal fares, the main reason for TfL's complexity is that they attempt to get people to avoid Zones 1 and 2. Without that, it would be a very simple table of Zone A to Zone B = £x.

 

[Belperpete]

It would be simpler and I understand that smartcards and etickets are quite popular with customers before they see the reality of UK railway smartcards and etickets!

I would dearly love to be able to buy etickets, as they would solve a lot my problems. As far as I am aware, the only problem with etickets (as opposed to the deeply-flawed mtickets that I won't touch with a bargepole) is their lack of availability, either because they are not available for cross-London journeys, or because the fare-setting TOC has chosen not to enable them for a particular traffic flow (which means nobody can sell them for those journeys). I am aware that certain TOCs have flawed implementations of etickets, but there is a simple solution to that - buy them from another seller that allows you to print the pdf, and/or store it on your phone.

 

[scotrail158713]

I have a feeling that somebody has already said this, but to me this seems like a case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Is there a reason why onboard ticket sales should end?

 

[ashkeba]

I have a feeling that somebody has already said this, but to me this seems like a case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Is there a reason why onboard ticket sales should end?

Not for sure. But now it seems broken in at least two ways: 1. we have guards on some line do more work printing every simple ticket and handing over card or the hated toilet roll tickets, sometimes delaying doors opening - by making at least simple singles and returns contactless, the guards only need sell the unusual tickets, or maybe trains could have ticket machines on; 2. we have other trains where you have to arrive early at the station to queue up at a rubbish ticket machine and if you do not know this and board like you can in other areas, then you cannot buy a ticket and have to pay penalties - in short, there is no standard user method for UK trains.

@yorkie said there is a big drive towards e-tickets which I can see could fix both of the above but I did not find any useful information on National Rail, Greater Anglia or Great Northern websites and @Belperpete says e-tickets have to be enabled for each "traffic flow", so whyle that remains, we would still have problem 2 and no standard user method for UK trains.

I think those who use trains all the times maybe forget how difficult it is to explain how to travel by train to visitors to the UK, or maybe young people just starting to travel alone. When you try to explain it, it is difficult. Even National Rail is confusing: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types.aspx#Where says both "If there are no ticket purchasing facilities at the station (such as a booking office or a ticket machine, or they are closed/out of service), you may be able to buy your ticket on board the train" and "You should always make sure that you hold a valid ticket before you board the train" right next to each other.

 

[Killingworth]

It being a lovely morning here in Sheffield I took an early train into the Hope Valley hoping to get some sunrise pictures. No such luck, however I was able to observe human nature relating to paying for tickets. Outbound all boarding at Dore had tickets. I left at Hathersage and returned from Grindleford. All 3 stations had working TVMs.

Coming back I thought the train was very well loaded as it pulled in at Grindleford. But there were only 2 in the rear carriage! When leaving the train at Sheffield that's nearest to the exit so not surprising.

The guard passed me and worked through the carriage before Dore. About half appeared to need tickets and half of them seemed to be paying with cards.

At Dore the platform was quite busy for a holiday period. Observing the TVM I was pleasantly surprised to note most were able to get their desired tickets reasonably quickly.

Conclusions on a very small sample?

The travellers going into Sheffield seemed to have been less happy to get tickets from the TVMs. Those going out seemed to have mastered the machine better than I'd previously managed. If Edale had been a popular fare option instead of Chesterfield (only one train a day goes direct to there) it would have speeded things up a lot!

With unbarriered stations at all but Piccadilly revenue is poorly monitored as it is. TVMs are very temperamental and can often shut down, even if only for 5 minutes. Today wasn't very busy, yet there was quite a huddle around the machine. At peak times it's not easy to get to the machine unless there a good 10-15 minutes before departure (currently not too much a problem as most trains are at least 5 minutes late).

There isn't a practical way of ensuring everyone pays without employing people somewhere. Without a lot more rail users and more trains it's not economic to employ more station staff. Using a conductor/guard seems to be the most realistic practice, backed up by roving teams of enforcement staff working busier trains and meeting busy trains at alighting points. Northern seem to have discovered that this works, although some finer tuning may be necessary.

Unless all stations have a manned booking office, all TVMs can be made to run totally fault free, all stations have barriers that can somehow detain those who are determined to jump over them, and some way can be found to check everyone has a valid ticket I can't see how ticket inspection and sales duties can be removed from aboard trains from most routes in Northern land.

Comparing my route with 2 coach trains at 1tph with that of c2c in Essex with 6tph and 8 coaches it's clear that one size can't fit all.