ScotRail HST - Alternative Provision

[GrimShady]

My post was intended to be a little bit tongue-in-cheek, and you cannot deny that you'd just love to resurrect Scotrail Express - 80s style - on the network

What would I suggest? I don't think loco-haulage is the way forward, to be honest. 68+Mk5 is a suggestion that has reared its head on more than one occasion, but there are currently two Mk5 builds in progress, neither of which seem to be on time. As for class 67s - they're geared for 125mph running, would they be the right solution? I really don't know.

Bi-mode 80x? Seems sensible to me if the electrification continues, but it upsets the anti-underfloor-engine contingent. Maybe a bi-mode version of the 385, but with doors at the end - a cross between that and the 802, but with gangways to allow units to work in multiple. I'd suggest going for 3- and 4-cars. Platform lengths would be an issue in some places, but SDO could get around this. I'm also interested to see how the Stadler units perform in service - perhaps a FLIRT variant would be better in the long run. None of these options are going to be a quick fix, though.

The HST programme looked ideal when it was first mooted, and the refurbished set looks fab, but as time goes on and the delivery schedule slips further and further behind I'm having second thoughts.

Scotrail have 8 weeks to put together a plan to solve their issues, so it will be interesting to see what develops.

I did pick up on that, and I apologise if my response sounded rude.

I would like to bring a version of the ScotRail Express back yes.

 

[duffield]

I believe this has been asked before, but what work would be needed to make Mk4's work with the Class 43 power cars? If it's less hassle than fitting automatic doors and retention tanks to Mk3's, then could Wabtec continue to (try and) refurbish the Mk3's until the Mk4's come off lease, then begin to refurbish them to the same specs? They would only need the internal work done (cafe, first class snack area, livery etc) as they already have automatic doors and tanks. Far from ideal, but potentially faster than waiting for the Mk3's, unless things suddenly start to pick up?

I can't find the post, but there was definitely a claim on this forum around 6-18 months ago that a solution to exactly this issue to allow EMT HST power cars to work with MK4 coaches was 'being designed' as a stopgap to deal with the PRM mods deadline on 31/12/2019. I've seen no further posts or articles about this since then so who knows if it's actually happening.

 

[Goldromans]

I know the Mk5+68 suggestion has been made a few times, but could new Mk5’s be built to work with 43’s? I’m far from an expert, but COULD this be an option should ScotRail decide to look for HST alternatives?

 

[gingertom]

I know the Mk5+68 suggestion has been made a few times, but could new Mk5’s be built to work with 43’s? I’m far from an expert, but COULD this be an option should ScotRail decide to look for HST alternatives?

technically there's no reason this can't happen. Politically though hooking up 40+ year old locos with 0 year old coaching stock is going to have some sort of backlash. How long do you expect the class 43s to last in service? New coaching stock really ought to have batch of new locos to go with them, but the trend is for bi-mode multiple units like 80x and Flirt, maybe the other rolling stock builders might put together something suitable. A follow-on order for a batch of suitably equipped mk5s shouldn't have to go through the same acceptance procedure as it will already have received type approval.
It will come down to cost.

 

[gsnedders]

I know the Mk5+68 suggestion has been made a few times, but could new Mk5’s be built to work with 43’s? I’m far from an expert, but COULD this be an option should ScotRail decide to look for HST alternatives?

From an engineering point of view, it's almost certainly doable: the change of power supply isn't that hard to account for at the design/build stage (it's much harder to retrofit, though). The problem, however, is the fact that once the Class 43s are life-expired (which they will be long before any new-build coaching stock) you then have stock that is incompatible with any locomotive.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

In my humble opinion. The best train currently in operations is without doubt TPE's 68's, Mk5's and a DVT.

 

[hexagon789]

In my humble opinion. The best train currently in operations is without doubt TPE's 68's, Mk5's and a DVT.

But is that the right thing for ScotRail operations? A 5-car bi-mode would be more logical to make use of the existing electrification.

 

[Northhighland]

W

But is that the right thing for ScotRail operations? A 5-car bi-mode would be more logical to make use of the existing electrification.

What electrification? For the three hour journey to Inverness from Glasgow or Edinburgh it would be less than a third under wires. Why introduce a much more expensive complex train for so little gain?
HML will not be electrified in the lifetime of the next new trains bought.

 

[Northhighland]

technically there's no reason this can't happen. Politically though hooking up 40+ year old locos with 0 year old coaching stock is going to have some sort of backlash. How long do you expect the class 43s to last in service? New coaching stock really ought to have batch of new locos to go with them, but the trend is for bi-mode multiple units like 80x and Flirt, maybe the other rolling stock builders might put together something suitable. A follow-on order for a batch of suitably equipped mk5s shouldn't have to go through the same acceptance procedure as it will already have received type approval.
It will come down to cost.

a fleet of 30 units needs to be something off the shelf. 68 and mk5 coaches with DVT seems a decent shout.

 

[hexagon789]

W

What electrification? For the three hour journey to Inverness from Glasgow or Edinburgh it would be less than a third under wires. Why introduce a much more expensive complex train for so little gain?
HML will not be electrified in the lifetime of the next new trains bought.

Can do Glasgow-Dunblane under the wires on a Glasgow-Aberdeen run. It also future proofs to an extent by allowing for future electrification.

 

[Northhighland]

Can do Glasgow-Dunblane under the wires on a Glasgow-Aberdeen run. It also future proofs to an extent by allowing for future electrification.

The absolute best that electrification will ever achieve is Perth. That isn’t really realistic under the current cost structure for the work. Be very difficult to make a business case stick.

Seems to me will be a lot of extra investment for not that much benefit.

surelg locos, mk5’s and a dvt must be cheaper than a bi mode. Still leaves the possibility of electrification by using an electric loco should that ever happen.

 

[hexagon789]

The absolute best that electrification will ever achieve is Perth. That isn’t really realistic under the current cost structure for the work. Be very difficult to make a business case stick.

Seems to me will be a lot of extra investment for not that much benefit.

surelg locos, mk5’s and a dvt must be cheaper than a bi mode. Still leaves the possibility of electrification by using an electric loco should that ever happen.

Even the 62/63-odd miles to Perth is better than running that on diesel and it would make extending the OLE more attractive, if you've got stock that can use it rather than having to buy new purely to make use of it.

 

[Journeyman]

Seems to me that the enthusiasts' view that anything with underfloor engines is evil is taking over here. The Hitachi bi-mode is a very sensible option, which is why so many people want to order it. It's more economic to operate than a 68, has electric capability, and the 5-car version would be perfect for ScotRail's needs. I'm on a GWR IET as we speak - the ride is very good, and I completely failed to notice the switch to diesel mode.

 

[hexagon789]

Seems to me that the enthusiasts' view that anything with underfloor engines is evil is taking over here. The Hitachi bi-mode is a very sensible option, which is why so many people want to order it. It's more economic to operate than a 68, has electric capability, and the 5-car version would be perfect for ScotRail's needs. I'm on a GWR IET as we speak - the ride is very good, and I completely failed to notice the switch to diesel mode.

Exactly, it's a logical option. Either that or the slightly different ones EMR are getting, which with 4 engines might be the better choice.

 

[43096]

Seems to me that the enthusiasts' view that anything with underfloor engines is evil is taking over here. The Hitachi bi-mode is a very sensible option, which is why so many people want to order it. It's more economic to operate than a 68, has electric capability, and the 5-car version would be perfect for ScotRail's needs. I'm on a GWR IET as we speak - the ride is very good, and I completely failed to notice the switch to diesel mode.

It’s over-engineered for what ScotRail needs. Why do they need a 140mph train?

 

[option]

The absolute best that electrification will ever achieve is Perth. That isn’t really realistic under the current cost structure for the work. Be very difficult to make a business case stick.

Seems to me will be a lot of extra investment for not that much benefit.

surelg locos, mk5’s and a dvt must be cheaper than a bi mode. Still leaves the possibility of electrification by using an electric loco should that ever happen.

Why not Dundee?
& some electrification around Aberdeen...

Fuel prices are only going one way, & Scotland is producing more & more renewable electricity
Could also be a load of EMUs & bi-modes available for cascading in 20 years time

 

[Journeyman]

It’s over-engineered for what ScotRail needs. Why do they need a 140mph train?

They don't need 125mph, but have chosen it. The 68 is a very complex beast so I don't know why everyone thinks it's a good idea.

 

[randyrippley]

off-the-wall idea.....but could class 158 coaches be modified to run as class 185 intermediates?
Or given the installed power of the 185s maybe not every coach needs to be powered: are there any trailers from electric units coming off lease which could be lashed up as a temporary strengthening fix?

 

[GrimShady]

Nobody wants more DMUs which is the reason of being for the HST program to start with. IETs are a rotten traveling environment and do not fit what ScotRail needs.

It has to be either EMU with Loco off the wires or LHCS.

 

[randyrippley]

Nobody wants more DMUs which is the reason of being for the HST program to start with. IETs are a rotten traveling environment and do not fit what ScotRail needs.

It has to be either EMU with Loco off the wires or LHCS.

Well HSTs aren't going to happen soon, too difficult, too old, too knackered.
EMUs aren't going to happen soon, wiring is years away
Available LHCS is all heading elsewhere
The earliest new builds are at least two years away.
So you're left with handmedowns, and all thats on offer are DMUs - and you're going to have to make the most of them. Maybe that involves novel solutions such as hybrid trainsets e.g. an EMU trailer inserted into a 185 to beef it up

 

[GrimShady]

Well HSTs aren't going to happen soon, too difficult, too old, too knackered.
EMUs aren't going to happen soon, wiring is years away
Available LHCS is all heading elsewhere
The earliest new builds are at least two years away.
So you're left with handmedowns, and all thats on offer are DMUs - and you're going to have to make the most of them. Maybe that involves novel solutions such as hybrid trainsets e.g. an EMU trailer inserted into a 185 to beef it up

The HSTs are happening even if it is a slow pace, no one else is having the same issues with them...just ScotRail.
EMUs plus Loco was what I said.

How is an EMU trailer and 185 supposed to work? If HSTs are "too difficult" ?

 

[43096]

They don't need 125mph, but have chosen it. The 68 is a very complex beast so I don't know why everyone thinks it's a good idea.

Presumably down to cost. A brand new 140mph electro-diesel is going to cost a hell of a lot to lease - more than Wee Jimmy Krankie has in the piggybank, no doubt. An HST, even a heavily refurbished one, is going to be a lot cheaper.

 

[Clansman]

The 68 is a very complex beast so I don't know why everyone thinks it's a good idea.

The whole 68 + Mk5 thing seems to derive from people's opinion that the Mk5s are the natural successor to Mk3s wherever they operate, simply because they are LHCS and nothing else.

It baffles me as to why people think this is a good idea, despite the franchise spec all but eliminating single loco haulage as well as particular areas that would render the Mk5s incompatible.

Worth noting that the Mk5s for TPE are just an adaptation off the sleeper design, and not a dedicated production line in their own right. So it's not as if they are the perfect be all and end all coaches that many like to assume would take precedence in any future LHCS order.

 

[option]

It’s over-engineered for what ScotRail needs. Why do they need a 140mph train?

They don't 'need' the 140mph.
If your only looking at buying a small number of something, it makes sense to buy whatever is already available, & that others are already buying. That reduces purchase cost & maintenance costs.

 

[Journeyman]

Nobody wants more DMUs which is the reason of being for the HST program to start with. IETs are a rotten traveling environment and do not fit what ScotRail needs.

It has to be either EMU with Loco off the wires or LHCS.

99.9% of people don't care about DMUs vs. locos, and the IETs are fine. I'm on one now.

 

[xotGD]

99.9% of people don't care about DMUs vs. locos, and the IETs are fine. I'm on one now.

Passengers are conditioned to accept what they are used to. After years on DMUs, you get used to the underfloor engine noise. Then if a loco-hauled train turns up one day you'll think "Wow! This train is nice and quiet!"

 

[HSTEd]

Class 195s in fixed formation sets with suitable interior spec.

Is there actually any significant >110mph running on any of the projected routes anyway?

 

[hexagon789]

Class 195s in fixed formation sets with suitable interior spec.

Is there actually any significant >110mph running on any of the projected routes anyway?

No more Turbostar-esque suburban units, if it must be DMUs rather than bi-modes at least ScotRail should get proper InterCity spec ones, we've been stuck with unsuitable units for too long.

And no, there is nothing over 100 on any of Scotland's internal routes at present, though veiled suggestions of increases were mentioned.

 

[Journeyman]

No more Turbostar-esque suburban units, if it must be DMUs rather than bi-modes at least ScotRail should get proper InterCity spec ones, we've been stuck with unsuitable units for too long.

And no, there is nothing over 100 on any of Scotland's internal routes at present, though veiled suggestions of increases were mentioned.

The CAF Civity is available in an end-door intercity body style, as per the TPE electric units. CAF will build a diesel version if required.

 

[hexagon789]

The CAF Civity is available in an end-door intercity body style, as per the TPE electric units. CAF will build a diesel version if required.

They do a bi-mode don't they? Perhaps that could be utilised instead of a pure diesel