Could 230s be rushed onto the IoW line as a stopgap?

[Meerkat]

How much infrastructure work is essential for the new trains, and how much would it take to get a bare minimum Cl230 replacement going (ie minimum refurbishment, concentrating on electrics/mechanics).
I.e. at what point could they just give up with the Cl483s and rush the Cl230s in?

 

[hwl]

How much infrastructure work is essential for the new trains, and how much would it take to get a bare minimum Cl230 replacement going (ie minimum refurbishment, concentrating on electrics/mechanics).
I.e. at what point could they just give up with the Cl483s and rush the Cl230s in?

484s rather than 230s going to IOW.
Effectively new traction motors and electronics so pretty quick.

 

[hooverboy]

484s rather than 230s going to IOW.
Effectively new traction motors and electronics so pretty quick.

presumably the quickest it could be done would be to dispense with ac traction motors altogether and run on the originals.the trains should be good to go almost as is.


I think centre doors would need blanking off as there would be quite a large(probably too large) gap between train and platform at ryde esplanade, and that particular platform might need shaving back a touch.
According to vivarail they also need the underfloor rubber bungs on the suspension removed to lower the unit.

then you would need:
lineside power gear uprated from 660 to 750v
line inspection of rails/conductors to check connectivity of line and condition of insulators etc.
gauge clearance checks
signalling systems checks
testing+training of staff

with the trains boken down(out of season), with a bit of effort this could all be running again with new trains-even off the shelf d78's, by spring next year.

if you wanted track fortification,linespeed improvements and the passing loop added,then obviously that will take longer.
(the original question was about barebones quick fix)

 

[hwl]

presumably the quickest it could be done would be to dispense with ac traction motors altogether and run on the originals.the trains should be good to go almost as is.
I think centre doors would need blanking off as there would be quite a large(probably too large) gap between train and platform at ryde esplanade.

then you would need:
lineside power gear uprated from 660 to 750v
line inspection of rails/conductors to check connectivity of line and condition of insulators etc.
gauge clearance checks
signalling systems checks

with the trains boken down(out of season), with a bit of effort this could all be running again with new trains-even off the shelf d78's, by spring next year.

The timing issues are largely infrastructure related not train ones. E.g track lowering through platforms etc. So no reason not to do the trains properly.
The infrastructure needs lots of work

The new traction equipment effectively removes the supply voltage issues as regards increasing at equipment renewal time , increases maintenance intervals and reliability so very silly not to.

 

[Dstock7080]

presumably the quickest it could be done would be to dispense with ac traction motors altogether and run on the originals.the trains should be good to go almost as is.
. . . with a bit of effort this could all be running again with new trains-even off the shelf d78's, by spring next year.

2-car D Stock cannot run ‘as is’, they would require compressors. The existing ones would be too large and heavy to install under a DM car.

 

[hooverboy]

The timing issues are largely infrastructure related not train ones. E.g track lowering through platforms etc. So no reason not to do the trains properly.
The infrastructure needs lots of work

The new traction equipment effectively removes the supply voltage issues as regards increasing at equipment renewal time , increases maintenance intervals and reliability so very silly not to.

agreed, but as the quickest "blue peter" style fix you can get those modifications like traction motors are not essential,and will increase cost and lead time, at least short term.

 

[hooverboy]

2-car D Stock cannot run ‘as is’, they would require compressors. The existing ones would be too large and heavy to install under a DM car.

so add a trailer car with compressor fitted and run as 2 sets of 3 car. needed in summer anyway.If I recall correctly summer formation is 2*2 car + 1*2 car sets, so you're not losing capacity,and the increase in track access fees would be bearable.
lots of trailers going spare.I don't think vivarail have had much uptake on those.

whatever mods get done,it would be good if they would install inter-carriage gangways and doors.
It would help the guard immensely.
Again,this is on the "nice to have,but..." list.

 

[Meerkat]

I was just thinking absolute barebones plan as it seems from the outside that there is a risk of a permanent collapse of the service with the current trains.
So absolute minimum infrastructure changes and taking D stock as original as safely/legally possible (just disconnect centre doors and put big ‘not in use’ vinyls on, for example) whilst other units are converted to final version.
Are the infrastructure changes either/or - ie they have to be done in a big swoop with neither type of stock running?
Mods - apologies, this part of the thread should probably be moved to speculation??

 

[hwl]

I was just thinking absolute barebones plan as it seems from the outside that there is a risk of a permanent collapse of the service with the current trains.
So absolute minimum infrastructure changes and taking D stock as original as safely/legally possible (just disconnect centre doors and put big ‘not in use’ vinyls on, for example) whilst other units are converted to final version.
Are the infrastructure changes either/or - ie they have to be done in a big swoop with neither type of stock running?
Mods - apologies, this part of the thread should probably be moved to speculation??

In service it will be an either / or but some test running of new stock not in service after some of the initial modifications. (Covered in the main IoW thread).
Given the planned timings of the key initial mods stock won't be the main issue

 

[swt_passenger]

presumably the quickest it could be done would be to dispense with ac traction motors altogether and run on the originals.the trains should be good to go almost as is.


I think centre doors would need blanking off as there would be quite a large(probably too large) gap between train and platform at ryde esplanade, and that particular platform might need shaving back a touch.
According to vivarail they also need the underfloor rubber bungs on the suspension removed to lower the unit.

then you would need:
lineside power gear uprated from 660 to 750v
line inspection of rails/conductors to check connectivity of line and condition of insulators etc.
gauge clearance checks
signalling systems checks
testing+training of staff

with the trains boken down(out of season), with a bit of effort this could all be running again with new trains-even off the shelf d78's, by spring next year.

if you wanted track fortification,linespeed improvements and the passing loop added,then obviously that will take longer.
(the original question was about barebones quick fix)

You forgot converting the traction return on the units to run through the axles and wheels. However why would you initially need a trackside power upgrade to 750V? The units spent most of their life running on LU 660V, and this is supposed to be a ‘bare bones’ process?

 

[hooverboy]

You forgot converting the traction return on the units to run through the axles and wheels. However why would you initially need a trackside power upgrade to 750V? The units spent most of their life running on LU 660V, and this is supposed to be a ‘bare bones’ process?

point taken about 3rd rail conversion,but this would need to be done in any case.
looks like they can do 630v,but it's on the cards for pretty much everything to be standardised at 750v in the not too distant future,and we know the present power gear is knackered and need replacing.

 

[Chris125]

According to vivarail they also need the underfloor rubber bungs on the suspension removed to lower the unit.

You're probably getting confused with the Class 230s, whose bodies were raised by Vivarail to minimise gauging issues - this isn't necessary for the 484s and they'll remain as-built.

Hourly service until at least November 17th - https://www.islandecho.co.uk/island-line-disruption-expected-to-continue-into-next-week/

Island Line is expected to run a reduced hourly timetable until at least 17th November, it has been announced.

A fault with 1 of just 2 trains operating on the Island Line network means that there is now just 1 train running between Ryde Pier Head and Shanklin.

This reliance on a single train – which is over 80 years old – has seen the service suspended in its entirety at least twice this week.

 

[Meerkat]

Anyone know how advanced the plans are and capacity availability?
Have Vivarail got too much on their plates to bring the 484 basic forward, and how quickly could the spades be in the ground if the 483 maintenance bods said it was time to give up?

 

[pdeaves]

How much infrastructure work is essential for the new trains, and how much would it take to get a bare minimum Cl230 replacement going (ie minimum refurbishment, concentrating on electrics/mechanics).
I.e. at what point could they just give up with the Cl483s and rush the Cl230s in?

If you mean 230s then you need to deal with fuelling facilities and staff training to work with internal combustion engines.

 

[hwl]

If you mean 230s then you need to deal with fuelling facilities and staff training to work with internal combustion engines.

484 will fit through the tunnels - 230 which have the ride height raised to fit the engine underneath won't -he doesn't mean 230s!

 

[hwl]

Anyone know how advanced the plans are and capacity availability?
Have Vivarail got too much on their plates to bring the 484 basic forward, and how quickly could the spades be in the ground if the 483 maintenance bods said it was time to give up?

All set out in the previously locked thread.

 

[pdeaves]

484 will fit through the tunnels - 230 which have the ride height raised to fit the engine underneath won't -he doesn't mean 230s!

In which case, the 484s, however quickly they arrived, would not be a 'stopgap' (as per thread title), they would be the final solution.

 

[hooverboy]

Anyone know how advanced the plans are and capacity availability?
Have Vivarail got too much on their plates to bring the 484 basic forward, and how quickly could the spades be in the ground if the 483 maintenance bods said it was time to give up?

I think the original plan was to have the groundworks and 484's in service by mid 2021.

the delapidated state of the 483's "should" act as a catalyst to fast track the work, but probably won't.

Going nearly 2 more years without some semblance of a service isn't really on.With any luck IoW council,vivarail,SWR and network rail are holding emergency meetings about this already,with a view to an interim solution.

Vivarail can probably manage their side with a very basic mod and loan of some D78's in a couple of months,before they supply the nice refurbed ones in late 2020 as scheduled
The bottleneck is going to be network rail and structural changes(ie lineside power gear, pier strengthening,platform clearances and overhead obstacles.At the very least,the latter two are essential immediately)

 

[Energy]

As class 484s are announced I can't see this happening, considering the time to get a few D78s in service we could be past Q1 2020 and is there much point? The old rolling stock issue has been fixed with new units on order but is waiting until the end of 2020 really that bad that it justifies bringing stock for such a short period of time?

 

[ijmad]

Get a couple pacers down there?

 

[Energy]

Get a couple pacers down there?

Don't think they would fit through the tunnel

 

[talltim]

How about an open top pacer?

 

[randyrippley]

plenty of old Blackpool trams knocking around.........convert a couple of their open toppers to 3rd rail collection. You might have to make allowances for platform height and use street level boarding but it would be a cheap solution

 

[hwl]

In which case, the 484s, however quickly they arrived, would not be a 'stopgap' (as per thread title), they would be the final solution.

Exactly.
The current 483 issues could be resolved some what by increasing maintenance staffing budget and resources as getting 2 units out daily from 4 units should be do-able.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All the previous postings are interesting in their own right, but Southern Vectis still provide a far better public transport service not just on the route of the Island Line, but covering much of the island, Newport in particular, with somewhat newer vehicles than currently in use on the rail service.