My suggestion for new GWR trains...

[toby_farman]

So I've had this idea for a while to replace some GWR trains with new stock... Please can someone tell me if it works?

These new trains would be of the CAF Civity family and all look the same...
I envision that they would ALL look similar to the northern 195s and 331s.

I envision that they would be accessible, wide gangways, comfortable seats, 2 sets of 3pin sockets at every two seats, accessible toilets with big Door Locked/Door Unlocked lights in the mirror, table seats that match up with windows, free wifi, no seat reservations, and you couldn't tell what power source they would be on. (yeah, i'm just dreaming about trains here)

Oh and they would have a 110 mph speed limit, unlike the new northern Civities.

They would replace the:

• 150s
• 158s
• 165s
• 166s
• 4car HSTs
• 769s

(and the pacers, but hopefully they will be gone first)

They would be:

• 4 car pure electrics (Pantograph only) - Used on GWML services and Thames Valley stuff
• 2, 3, and 4 car pure diesels - Rural lines like Looe Valley line and short HST lines
• 2, 3 and 4 car bi-modes (Pantograph, diesel and third rail) - North downs line and Brighton main line

(the routes that i have given are not accurate)

I envision that there would be hundreds of these new trains for GWR.


They should also get mark 5 sleepers like the Caledonian Sleeper from CAF and Class 68s/67s for the Caledonian sleeper to replace the Mk3s and the 57s, but the Civities are more important.

What do you think?!?!?!

 

[swt_passenger]

They already have practically brand new 387s for “GWML and Thames Valley stuff” where it’s already wired. Are you replacing them as well? If not you don’t need any four car EMUs.

 

[samuelmorris]

Why specifically Civity units? Any such proposal would go out to tender and several manufacturers would be quizzed on it, at least CAF and Stadler, ideally with other options in there too.

There is absolutely no need for the 387s to be replaced as they are less than 3 years old and perfectly suitable for the services they are running. What would be useful I admit is to have some Bi-mode units replace the remaining 165/166 units working the Thames Valley branch lines. Ideally, a dual-voltage bimode that can also take care of the Reading - Gatwick/Redhill services, assuming that the 769s don't ever prove useful.

The castle units, along with the 158s and 165/166s will all have to be replaced at some point - doing so with a common fleet of Bimode units would make sense as I think ordering diesel-only units in 2020 onwards is rather short-sighted.

This will probably come up when the GWR franchise is renewed next year. If a long-term operator is given the franchise (rather than a direct-award extension), or if the service is nationalised, then replacement of at least the remaining Sprinters will certainly be on the agenda.

 

[toby_farman]

They already have practically brand new 387s for “GWML and Thames Valley stuff” where it’s already wired. Are you replacing them as well? If not you don’t need any four car EMUs.

I never suggested replacing the 387s, they are losing 12 387s to Heathrow Express service so i suggest only a small fleet of 4 car electric civities to replace those

 

[toby_farman]

assuming that the 769s don't ever prove useful

I don't think the 769s will ever be able to be long term rolling stock... they are a "stopgap" until a brand new fleet of trains are introduced with could take like 3 years... At least thats what TFWrail is using them as.

They were gonna recycle the 319s anyway so it made sense to use them for a few years to cover the need for DMUs.

Why specifically Civity units? Any such proposal would go out to tender and several manufacturers would be quizzed on it, at least CAF and Stadler, ideally with other options in there too.

CAF are the only company to offer trains on the same platform with 4 power options, which are diesel, diesel-electric, electric and bi/dual mode.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I never suggested replacing the 387s, they are losing 12 387s to Heathrow Express service so i suggest only a small fleet of 4 car electric civities to replace those

I think that's covered by TfL's 345 fleet taking over the Reading stoppers. They might need a few more electrics or bi-modes for Oxford services if the Didcot to Oxford line is ever electrified.

 

[MarkyT]

...What would be useful I admit is to have some Bi-mode units replace the remaining 165/166 units working the Thames Valley branch lines. Ideally, a dual-voltage bimode that can also take care of the Reading - Gatwick/Redhill services, assuming that the 769s don't ever prove useful. The castle units, along with the 158s and 165/166s will all have to be replaced at some point - doing so with a common fleet of Bimode units would make sense as I think ordering diesel-only units in 2020 onwards is rather short-sighted.

Plug in diesel-battery hybrid might be more practical for local and regional services in the west. That could allow trains to start the day's diagram with a full tank and battery and always be able to run through urban areas and start away from stations on battery, with the diesel taking up load gradually once at speed, stressing the engine less and thus increasing maintenance intervals.

 

[toby_farman]

I think that's covered by TfL's 345 fleet taking over the Reading stoppers. They might need a few more electrics or bi-modes for Oxford services if the Didcot to Oxford line is ever electrified.

I don't think they're covered by the 345s cos ElizaPurpCrossRail doesn't go to Didcot Parkway and Newbury and Reading – Newbury which the GWR 387s are currently running on but you are right that they're may be more lines electrified so they need bi-modes but i did originally suggest that.

 

[toby_farman]

Plug in diesel-battery hybrid might be more practical for local and regional services in the west. That could allow trains to start the day's diagram with a full tank and battery and always be able to run through urban areas and start away from stations on battery, with the diesel taking up load gradually once at speed, stressing the engine less and thus increasing maintenance intervals.

We don't have working BEMUs yet. Would be nice, but with your suggested diesel engines, it would take many years for a working train to enter the market.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't think they're covered by the 345s cos ElizaPurpCrossRail doesn't go to Didcot Parkway and Newbury and Reading – Newbury which the GWR 387s are currently running on but you are right that they're may be more lines electrified so they need bi-modes but i did originally suggest that.

The 345s take over the Reading stoppers, releasing 387s to Heathrow.
No additional units are required

 

[toby_farman]

The 345s take over the Reading stoppers, releasing 387s to Heathrow.
No additional units are required

Yes but as I said the 345s do not go to Didcot Parkway/Newbury...

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes but AS I SAID the 345s do not go to Didcot Parkway/Newbury...

The 387 fleet does though. The HEx changes do not require another fleet of trains, the transfer is already accounted for, as has been discussed in the relevant threads in the main parts of the forum..

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes but AS I SAID the 345s do not go to Didcot Parkway/Newbury...

That's covered by the remaining 387s...

 

[MatthewRead]

They already have practically brand new 387s for “GWML and Thames Valley stuff” where it’s already wired. Are you replacing them as well? If not you don’t need any four car EMUs.

They are already a bit worse for wear though see

 

[MarkyT]

We don't have working BEMUs yet. Would be nice, but with your suggested diesel engines, it would take many years for a working train to enter the market.

The Stadler FLIRTs for the Rhymney/VON lines in South Wales are planned to have diesels and battery banks on board together with OHLE capability. Adding batteries to an existing DEMU with electric transmission should be comparatively easy assuming the space is available for the batteries and a new traction control and charging system. Might be a good approach for a Voyager/Meridian half life rebuild, also changing out all the bogies (especially the heavy cl.222 outside frame examples) for the latest lightweight Flextronic Wako mechatronic active suspension model, with their claimed great savings in track forces and wear, and replacing the engines with slightly smaller, cleaner units.

 

[R G NOW.]

Are there any trains yet that can run only on battery power, being charged up at depots or in bay platforms, like you can with charging cars from an electrical socket?.

 

[randyrippley]

Plug in diesel-battery hybrid might be more practical for local and regional services in the west. That could allow trains to start the day's diagram with a full tank and battery and always be able to run through urban areas and start away from stations on battery, with the diesel taking up load gradually once at speed, stressing the engine less and thus increasing maintenance intervals.

Surely thats going to result in greater extremes of engine temperature thus stressing the engine more, not less?

 

[samuelmorris]

I never suggested replacing the 387s, they are losing 12 387s to Heathrow Express service so i suggest only a small fleet of 4 car electric civities to replace those

Again why? Why is that necessary?

CAF are the only company to offer trains on the same platform with 4 power options, which are diesel, diesel-electric, electric and bi/dual mode.

Not relevant? There is no specific route requirement to use diesel-mechanical over diesel-electric or vice versa that I'm aware of, there are some efficiency gains one way or the other, but Stadler offer the other three modes (and to my knowledge, all three have already been ordered by UK TOCs) so there's no reason whatsoever they could not also bid alongside CAF if they wished.

Plug in diesel-battery hybrid might be more practical for local and regional services in the west. That could allow trains to start the day's diagram with a full tank and battery and always be able to run through urban areas and start away from stations on battery, with the diesel taking up load gradually once at speed, stressing the engine less and thus increasing maintenance intervals.

I'm a big fan of the plug-in hybrid concept, I own one (in car form at least!) but the batteries for it are pretty heavy, even the small 9kWh battery in mine is over 100kg, I wonder how much plug-in range you can fit alongside all the other gear (e.g. diesel gensets plus electric traction power) in a railway vehicle. Moreover, installing the charging infrastructure probably won't actually be that cheap. I'd still prefer to see electrification.

 

[toby_farman]

Not relevant? There is no specific route requirement to use diesel-mechanical over diesel-electric or vice versa that I'm aware of, there are some efficiency gains one way or the other, but Stadler offer the other three modes (and to my knowledge, all three have already been ordered by UK TOCs) so there's no reason whatsoever they could not also bid alongside CAF if they wished.

I don't think GWR should order new diesel-mechanical trains, I was suggesting diesel-electric, bi-mode (+ 750v dc 3rd rail), and electric (25kv only)...

About what you said about Stadler, the FLIRTs already ordered and coming into service with GA only have one door per carriage (and it's offset - ugly, right?!) and I think that would limit the number of people able to get on and off the trains, especially at peak-time.

(also, as this is in the ideas forum, I genuinely prefer the look of the Nothern and TPE Civitys to the new GA FLIRTS, who agrees?)

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't think GWR should order new diesel-mechanical trains, I was suggesting diesel-electric, bi-mode (+ 750v dc 3rd rail), and electric (25kv only)...

About what you said about Stadler, the FLIRTs already ordered and coming into service with GA only have one door per carriage (and it's offset - ugly, right?!) and I think that would limit the number of people able to get on and off the trains, especially at peak-time.

(also, as this is in the ideas forum, I genuinely prefer the look of the Nothern and TPE Civitys to the new GA FLIRTS, who agrees?)

I'm not sure if either manufacturer have said anything about 750V DC 3rd rail, but otherwise both can offer all those options.

The GA units only have one set of doors per carriage and that's the idea they're going with for the most part but it's not essential to do so, the Merseyrail units will have 2 sets per carriage in the middle. The physical appearance of a unit design will never have any impact on a TOC's stock procurement whatsoever.

 

[toby_farman]

I'm not sure if either manufacturer have said anything about 750V DC 3rd rail, but otherwise both can offer all those options.

The GA units only have one set of doors per carriage and that's the idea they're going with for the most part but it's not essential to do so, the Merseyrail units will have 2 sets per carriage in the middle. The physical appearance of a unit design will never have any impact on a TOC's stock procurement whatsoever.

I was assuming bolting shoegear to a CAF Civity (or Stadler FLIRT) would be relatively easy. The reason why is suggested having the bi-mode trains capable of running on Pantograph, Diesel or third rail is because I was suggesting replacing the GWR 769s, which also are going to be running on services to Oxford, Reading and Gatwick Airport so GWR's allocation of 769s will keep the dual voltage capability and have Diesel engines so they can operate under Pantograph, Diesel or third rail so it makes sense to replace them with units capable of operating off the same power sources, no?

 

[Energy]

The door configuration is picked by the customer, it just happens that GA prefer one door per carriage and more shorter carriages, the TFW flirts have 2 doors per carriage.

In the following bit I will refer to them by DMU, EMU etc as other manufacturers can bid for it.

The electrics are unnecessary, the 387s which are being transferred to HEx did London - Reading and those services are going to TfL Rail in December, the 769s I believe are just to strengthen existing services and for the Reading branch lines.

DMUs are needed to replace the sprinters and hopefully the networker turbos as well, but I'm not sure if First will be working with CAF for a while considering the delays with TPE.
Stadler Flirts or Bombardier Aventras could be interesting and can be bimode, although Bombardier Talents in Europe could also be good if diesel is available on later models.

 

[samuelmorris]

I was assuming bolting shoegear to a CAF Civity (or Stadler FLIRT) would be relatively easy. The reason why is suggested having the bi-mode trains capable of running on Pantograph, Diesel or third rail is because I was suggesting replacing the GWR 769s, which also are going to be running on services to Oxford, Reading and Gatwick Airport so GWR's allocation of 769s will keep the dual voltage capability and have Diesel engines so they can operate under Pantograph, Diesel or third rail so it makes sense to replace them with units capable of operating off the same power sources, no?

Yes, Reading-Gatwick is the obvious area where third rail could be used, but I believe there are some areas around Portsmouth where that could also potentially be used (though I suspect it never would in practice).

It's definitely not wise to assume, though - there will be some level of R&D costs in terms of fitment of third rail pickup shoes and relevant wiring into the existing electrical infrastructure. While small compared to the work involved in fitting AC power with a pantograph and transformer, it's non-trivial and if the manufacturers would only ever get 10 or 20 units delivered in such a manner, they may not consider it to be worth the time and investment in developing a DC-powered variant of their product. This is one area that may give Stadler an advantage as they are more willing than most to adapt their product to meet a TOC's requirements.

 

[toby_farman]

The door configuration is picked by the customer, it just happens that GA prefer one door per carriage and more shorter carriages, the TFW flirts have 2 doors per carriage.

In the following bit I will refer to them by DMU, EMU etc as other manufacturers can bid for it.

The electrics are unnecessary, the 387s which are being transferred to HEx did London - Reading and those services are going to TfL Rail in December, the 769s I believe are just to strengthen existing services and for the Reading branch lines.

DMUs are needed to replace the sprinters and hopefully the networker turbos as well, but I'm not sure if First will be working with CAF for a while considering the delays with TPE.
Stadler Flirts or Bombardier Aventras could be interesting and can be bimode, although Bombardier Talents in Europe could also be good if diesel is available on later models.

No bi-mode Bombardier Aventras have been made!

 

[samuelmorris]

No bi-mode Bombardier Aventras have been made!

Yet. It's supposed to be in development though.

 

[toby_farman]

Yet. It's supposed to be in development though.

Are you referring to this article https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/bombardier-bi-mode-aventra-to-feature-battery-power or do you have any other evidence?

 

[samuelmorris]

Are you referring to this article https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/bombardier-bi-mode-aventra-to-feature-battery-power or do you have any other evidence?

Bombardier's own product portfolio
https://rail.bombardier.com/en/solu...nline/regional.html#AVENTRA_single-deck_train

 

[toby_farman]

Bombardier's own product portfolio
https://rail.bombardier.com/en/solu...nline/regional.html#AVENTRA_single-deck_train

Sorry, , was not aware of that!

 

[toby_farman]

The door configuration is picked by the customer, it just happens that GA prefer one door per carriage and more shorter carriages, the TFW flirts have 2 doors per carriage.

In the following bit I will refer to them by DMU, EMU etc as other manufacturers can bid for it.

The electrics are unnecessary, the 387s which are being transferred to HEx did London - Reading and those services are going to TfL Rail in December, the 769s I believe are just to strengthen existing services and for the Reading branch lines.

DMUs are needed to replace the sprinters and hopefully the networker turbos as well, but I'm not sure if First will be working with CAF for a while considering the delays with TPE.
Stadler Flirts or Bombardier Aventras could be interesting and can be bimode, although Bombardier Talents in Europe could also be good if diesel is available on later models.

Are the 769s "temporary" until new rolling stock is delivered (the CAF trains I am suggesting) or are they intended to be used long term?

 

[Clip]

Im all for new trains everywhere however this stuck out a little

table seats that match up with windows

This is all well and good in theory but it must not be at the expense of seating capacity.