Making the Conwy Valley less uneconomic

[Bletchleyite]

As discussed on other threads, the Blaenau branch is in limbo, a kind of zombie line. It doesn't justify any investment to improve it, but no-one is brave enough to propose closing it. So it staggers on, sucking in vast sums of money to maintain a service that is next-to-useless to both locals and tourists.

You'd think so, but it is getting investment relating to flood prevention and tunnel strengthening. So tidying up and simplifying the signalling situation would probably not be expensive, particularly if you went really simple on it (at the expense of charters) and just made it train staff working, one engine in steam.

Or if you want a loop, putting it at Betws would be the place for it, because you could run a two unit 2 hourly service then - you can't with it at Llanrwst - I tried to work the timetable out once.

As for Tal y Cafn, the crossing is on a small road and it's right next to the station, TBH it'd make sense to make it an open crossing and require the train to be driven on sight over it at 5mph or thereabouts, such that it could stop if it wasn't clear or became not clear.

 

[MarkyT]

You'd think so, but it is getting investment relating to flood prevention and tunnel strengthening. So tidying up and simplifying the signalling situation would probably not be expensive, particularly if you went really simple on it (at the expense of charters) and just made it train staff working, one engine in steam.

Or if you want a loop, putting it at Betws would be the place for it, because you could run a two unit 2 hourly service then - you can't with it at Llanrwst - I tried to work the timetable out once.

As for Tal y Cafn, the crossing is on a small road and it's right next to the station, TBH it'd make sense to make it an open crossing and require the train to be driven on sight over it at 5mph or thereabouts, such that it could stop if it wasn't clear or became not clear.

Agreed Betws is a better passing place. I suggest extend the single platform there and provide an automated Penryn-style loop, with one of the turnouts part way along the platform. A single platform at the passing place could simplify token exchange procedures, as a single instrument could be employed for each direction, which would avoid the token balancing of the Central Wales, although it would still be slow as both passing trains would have to be stopped in the platform for the exchange to work. I'd avoid token for the Llandudno section and employ a simplified colour light TCB installation with axle counter for the single line in that direction, so an up train could depart Betws as soon as the down had cleared the loop turnout. The Blaenau section could usefully retain token working though, in order to avoid changes to equipment at the far end of the line. There would thus be just a single token instrument in a hut on the platform at Betws, somewhere near the mid platform turnout. The signalbox and passing loop at Llanrwst would be removed under this scheme and North Llanrwst station itself might be closed entirely, or relegated to a single platform, either of which would allow the barrow crossing to be closed and removed.

Tal y Cafn could be converted to an automated type of crossing locally monitored, but I doubt a fully open design would be acceptable today. The modern solution would be ABCL (half barriers) or AFBLM (full barriers) both with local monitoring and the latter also equipped with obstacle detection tied into the drivers' flashing white light indication.

 

[randyrippley]

Turn it into another narrow gauge line and hand it over to the WHR / Ffestiniog to run as part of their network........could even be worth extending along the old line to Bala to service the walking market

 

[30907]

Turn it into another narrow gauge line and hand it over to the WHR / Ffestiniog to run as part of their network........could even be worth extending along the old line to Bala to service the walking market

An intriguing suggestion: I'd re-gauge as far as Betws y Coed (being a tiurist trap in its own right), rather than through to the junction. However, from a FR point of view their existing route is about the right length for the normal tourist market, and then there's the tunnel to worry about, so I suspect it's a no-no.
The Harz network was extended over ex-DB trackbed to Quedlinburg in similar fashion, but it doesn't load at all well.

 

[Llanigraham]

The FR have already refused to consider an extension along the Bala route, to Traws, and I see no purpose for them going the other way.
Plus as has been said they would have the problem of the tunnel.

 

[Belperpete]

You'd think so, but it is getting investment relating to flood prevention and tunnel strengthening. So tidying up and simplifying the signalling situation would probably not be expensive, particularly if you went really simple on it (at the expense of charters) and just made it train staff working, one engine in steam.
Or if you want a loop, putting it at Betws would be the place for it

As previously discussed, the money for the flood prevention and tunnel works are coming from the maintenance budget, as Network Rail are required to maintain the existing network. Any significant changes to the signalling system, such as making the whole line a single OES staff section, or moving the loop to Bettws, would be a network change and the money needed to implement them would therefore count as investment. One of the fundamental questions that will be asked of any investment proposal is "what other alternatives are there", a question that I think a lot of people don't want asking, as the option "close it and run buses instead" would win hands-down on both return-on-investment and public benefit basis.

I suspect that the current status of Llanrwst loop is a useful excuse for not running an improved service. Closing it would clearly be a network change, and need approval. If TfW really wanted to run an enhanced service, I think that they could insist that Network Rail "repair" the interlocking to reinstate the network facilities they are obliged to maintain.

 

[Belperpete]

As for Tal y Cafn, the crossing is on a small road and it's right next to the station, TBH it'd make sense to make it an open crossing and require the train to be driven on sight over it at 5mph or thereabouts, such that it could stop if it wasn't clear or became not clear.

I am not sure if you would be allowed to put in a new open crossing, let alone one on a public road.

There is no technical reason why you couldn't have an automatic crossing there, although as MarkyT says nowadays it would probably have to be one with barriers. The big problem would be justifying the investment cost against other options, as per my previous post.

 

[Belperpete]

Turn it into another narrow gauge line and hand it over to the WHR / Ffestiniog to run as part of their network........

It is already quicker to take the bus to and from Blaenau than the train, let alone if you restricted trains to light railway speeds of 25mph. It would kill what little local traffic is left.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I'm not sure I share people's pessimism about the line's potential.

Blaenau was a very sorry place at one time but it seems to have begun to turn the corner since it's bizarre exclusion from the National Park was ended. With the Gwynedd slate landscape slated (sorry) for world heritage status I think Blaenau could well grow both in terms of population and as a tourist destination.

For the rail service to succeed though something needs to be done to cut journey times. Unlike some on here, I'm not expert enough to know how possible that is.

 

[Meerkat]

Blaenau will never be a tourist attraction - there is almost literally nothing in the town and it’s usually raining.
For all the local attractions you really want a car, particularly due to the aforementioned rain!

 

[Starmill]

The cost of a new second platform and loop at Betws-y-Coed would be huge. This would need to justify some kind of benefits. Under the current circumstances the benefit would be zero. A second unit and crew would need to be found and the timetable re-written around that. Would you also wish to remove the loop at North Llanrwst?

The cost of repairing flood damage does not need to be justified in the same way as the cost of an enhancement. Unless you would like to change the framework. Perhaps it would be good if Parliament would finally grapple seriously with issues like this?

 

[Llanigraham]

Blaenau will never be a tourist attraction - there is almost literally nothing in the town and it’s usually raining.
For all the local attractions you really want a car, particularly due to the aforementioned rain!

I have friends who live in Blaenau, and you are so wrong in so many ways.
There are many tourists who go there now, try these for a start:
The Tunnel Below
Llechwedd
Zip World
Antur Stiniog
All can be walked to from the station.

And it certainly doesn't always rain there!

 

[Llanigraham]

The cost of a new second platform and loop at Betws-y-Coed would be huge. This would need to justify some kind of benefits. Under the current circumstances the benefit would be zero. A second unit and crew would need to be found and the timetable re-written around that. Would you also wish to remove the loop at North Llanrwst?

The cost of repairing flood damage does not need to be justified in the same way as the cost of an enhancement. Unless you would like to change the framework. Perhaps it would be good if Parliament would finally grapple seriously with issues like this?

2 points.
To put in a loop at Bettws would probably need the Railway Museum moving their cafe, their narrow gauge line and therefore a lot of compensation.
As this is in Wales it would be nothing to do with Parliament,as transport has been devolved to the Welsh Assembly.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The FR have already refused to consider an extension along the Bala route, to Traws, and I see no purpose for them going the other way.
Plus as has been said they would have the problem of the tunnel.

Nationalise it, then they don't have a choice!

Without wishing to go off on too much of a tangent, I always thought it was odd that the Vale of Rheidol line was under BR despite going nowhere of significance, whilst the FR and WHR (which at least in theory link reasonably-sized places) weren't. Plenty of other countries have narrow-gauge lines as part of a wider network after all.

 

[krus_aragon]

Without wishing to go off on too much of a tangent, I always thought it was odd that the Vale of Rheidol line was under BR despite going nowhere of significance, whilst the FR and WHR (which at least in theory link reasonably-sized places) weren't. Plenty of other countries have narrow-gauge lines as part of a wider network after all.

That was purely due to ownership. The Rheidiol wasn't a roaring success but it kept its head above the water, and it was bought out by the Cambrian Railways in 1913 for a fairly discount price. The Cambrian was then grouped into the GWR, which was in turn nationalised. The Ffestiniog was far more profitable due to its slate traffic, and stayed independent during merger season. By the time of nationalisation, its traffic had been hampered by the war years, and it could easily be overlooked by Whitehall (whereas the Rheidiol was already on the GWR books).

As for the Welsh Highland Railway and its predecessors, the North Wales Narrow Gauge Railways had tried to arrange a buyout with the LNWR around the same time as the Rheidiol's acquisition, but it came to nothing, and despite the merger into the Welsh Highland, the railway remained a financial basket case and fell into obscurity within decades.

 

[30907]

That was purely due to ownership. ....The Ffestiniog was far more profitable due to its slate traffic, and stayed independent during merger season. By the time of nationalisation, its traffic had been hampered by the war years, and it could easily be overlooked by Whitehall (whereas the Rheidiol was already on the GWR books).

To add to this, the WHR had already closed, the FR had struggled on till 1946, the Corris and W&L were also GWR. The Talyllyn was overlooked, as Tom Rolt discovered (see "Railway Adventure") - he suggests Whitehall thought it was already closed. Were any independent narrow-gauge lines nationalised?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Blaenau will never be a tourist attraction - there is almost literally nothing in the town and it’s usually raining. For all the local attractions you really want a car, particularly due to the aforementioned rain!

There we just disagree. Much the same could have been said of Blaenavon before Unesco granted it world heritage status. These days it attracts circa 500,000 visitor per year and, as in Blaenau, the main attractions are some distance from the town centre.

I find the indutrial landscape fascinating but each to his own I guess.

There's no reason a shuttle bus couldn't be provided to link the town to Llechwedd, Bounce Below etc if people aren't fit enough to take a short, if steep, walk.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

To add to this, the WHR had already closed, the FR had struggled on till 1946, the Corris and W&L were also GWR. The Talyllyn was overlooked, as Tom Rolt discovered (see "Railway Adventure") - he suggests Whitehall thought it was already closed. Were any independent narrow-gauge lines nationalised?

The Nantlle Railway which was owned by LNWR was nationalised. It operated the only horse drawn trains on the BR network. I'm not sure if it was standard or narrow gauge though. It certainly started off as a narrow gauge system but it may have been regauged by the time BR took over.

 

[Belperpete]

Blaenau will never be a tourist attraction - there is almost literally nothing in the town and it’s usually raining. For all the local attractions you really want a car, particularly due to the aforementioned rain!

The very first time I went to Blaenau (and it was raining!), I went into the tourist information office and they took one look at me and said "you'll be after the time of the next train back then". The town was almost a museum in itself, with the old-fashioned shops with window displays so faded they must have been unchanged for decades, sheep roaming the streets, and the Woolworths that sold farming supplies.

However, Blaenau is definitely on the up. There are now some very good shops and cafes there. The zip wire and bounce-below are apparently doing a roaring trade, and Llechwedd has recently had a refurbishment. There are also some very interesting walks locally, the Rhosydd Tramway being a favourite of mine. You definitely don't need a car.

 

[Belperpete]

To add to this, the WHR had already closed, the FR had struggled on till 1946, the Corris and W&L were also GWR. The Talyllyn was overlooked, as Tom Rolt discovered (see "Railway Adventure") - he suggests Whitehall thought it was already closed. Were any independent narrow-gauge lines nationalised?

Were there any independent lines, of any gauge, that were nationalised? I thought it was just the "big 4".

I remember reading somewhere that the FR not being included in the grouping may have had something to do with who the local MP was (Lloyd George).

 

[Belperpete]

The Nantlle Railway which was owned by LNWR was nationalised. It operated the only horse drawn trains on the BR network. I'm not sure if it was standard or narrow gauge though. It certainly started off as a narrow gauge system but it may have been regauged by the time BR took over.

Most of the Nantlle was buried under the standard gauge Caernarfon to Afon Wen line. If you know where to look, you can still see bits as you travel on the WHR to Dinas.

 

[krus_aragon]

However, Blaenau is definitely on the up. There are now some very good shops and cafes there. The zip wire and bounce-below are apparently doing a roaring trade, and Llechwedd has recently had a refurbishment. There are also some very interesting walks locally, the Rhosydd Tramway being a favourite of mine. You definitely don't need a car.

The Woolworths is sadly still stood empty, but there are signs of energy elsewhere. The Model Bakery is worth a visit: it may look just like any other village bakery stuck in decades of yore, but the proprietor (a Kurdish gentleman by the name of Kurmang) makes a wonderful selection of seeded honey breads, and spicy Kurdish pasties (meat and vegan options available). That's on top of the usual fare you've expect of an old-fashioned village bakery.

I have standing orders to call in and buy some of his breads whenever I'm passing through Blaenau!

 

[Belperpete]

I'm not sure I share people's pessimism about the line's potential....For the rail service to succeed though something needs to be done to cut journey times.

I agree. The road through the Conwy Valley and over the Crimea Pass has seen significant improvements, such that the bus service is now quicker than the train, and is also more conveniently timed. So most locals (such as myself) now use the bus.

Unfortunately, whilst I think we all agree there is a need to "do something" about the Conwy Valley Line, any investment proposal would require consideration of alternatives, of which closure of the line would be far and away the most cost-effective option, with buses capable of providing a much better and far more reliable service. However, any closure proposal would cause an almighty row, being seen as the start of a slippery slope and so-forth, so the attitude seems to be that it is better to let sleeping dogs lie. And so the line limps on as a kind of living-dead zombie sucking in vast sums of maintenance money to deal with the yearly flood breaches and tunnel collapses. I hate to think how much has been spent per passenger over the last couple of years - it would probably have been cheaper to provide each passenger with their own chauffeur-driven limo!

At this time of year, the trains see very few passengers - the last time I travelled I had a coach to myself beyond Bettws. Traffic does pick up considerably during the summer, but should we really be pouring millions into what is basically just a failing tourist attraction?

I would regret to see the line close for sentimental reasons. But as a local, I am also exasperated by the next-to-useless service, and the WA is not going to subsidise a decent bus service while it is also subsidising the train. As I see it, the chances of getting a decent service on the Conwy Valley Line are sadly zero, whereas if it died, there is at least a chance of getting a half-decent bus service in its place.

 

[30907]

Were there any independent lines, of any gauge, that were nationalised? I thought it was just the "big 4".

Quite a few (Rolt again); I haven't time to dig out the details, sorry.

 

[6Gman]

I agree. The road through the Conwy Valley and over the Crimea Pass has seen significant improvements, such that the bus service is now quicker than the train, and is also more conveniently timed. So most locals (such as myself) now use the bus.

Unfortunately, whilst I think we all agree there is a need to "do something" about the Conwy Valley Line, any investment proposal would require consideration of alternatives, of which closure of the line would be far and away the most cost-effective option, with buses capable of providing a much better and far more reliable service. However, any closure proposal would cause an almighty row, being seen as the start of a slippery slope and so-forth, so the attitude seems to be that it is better to let sleeping dogs lie. And so the line limps on as a kind of living-dead zombie sucking in vast sums of maintenance money to deal with the yearly flood breaches and tunnel collapses. I hate to think how much has been spent per passenger over the last couple of years - it would probably have been cheaper to provide each passenger with their own chauffeur-driven limo!

At this time of year, the trains see very few passengers - the last time I travelled I had a coach to myself beyond Bettws. Traffic does pick up considerably during the summer, but should we really be pouring millions into what is basically just a failing tourist attraction?

I would regret to see the line close for sentimental reasons. But as a local, I am also exasperated by the next-to-useless service, and the WA is not going to subsidise a decent bus service while it is also subsidising the train. As I see it, the chances of getting a decent service on the Conwy Valley Line are sadly zero, whereas if it died, there is at least a chance of getting a half-decent bus service in its place.

This. Precisely. Exactly the problem.

Either spend the money to produce a useful facility ...

... or shut it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Either spend the money to produce a useful facility ...

I think without being able to get it to a two hourly clockface timetable that is just going to be near impossible. But if it could be got to that somehow, it could then form the core of a rebirth of the presently rather lackadaisical Snowdon Sherpa bus network (to Trawscymru quality), with planned connections etc including shuttles to Zip World and the likes from the rather well-appointed (for its importance) little bus station at Blaenau.

A decent quality bus interchange a bit like that at Blaenau could be added at Betws on the short stay car park which is pretty much right outside the station.

An alternative way would be not to close it outright but to lop it at Betws with the rest of the line simplified to one engine in steam and Tal y Cafn crossing converted to AHB. That way staffing would simply be one driver and one guard at a time, and one unit could operate a two hourly clockface service reliably including through trains to Llandudno. Much as I love the lower half of the line for the scenery, I'm half tempted to say I support this option as being relatively low-cost to implement with huge benefits as well as keeping open the busiest part of the line and not losing the railway from one of Snowdonia's busiest tourist honeypots which would only make the traffic situation there worse. For all the locals might prefer buses, they demonstrably are nowhere near as good as trains for getting tourist traffic out of cars, and the demand here is potentially significant.

If hourly was preferred, you could fill in with buses - 2 hourly Llandudno-Betws train, 2 hourly Llandudno-Blaenau-Bala bus, say - and the road conditions might even allow timings to be matched between the two.

I reckon if the line was in Switzerland that's what we'd see happen (as Takt is king there), and that sort of thing has happened on some Swiss lines like Vevey-Blonay (though the other half of the top bit of that to Les Pleiades has remained).

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Unfortunately, whilst I think we all agree there is a need to "do something" about the Conwy Valley Line, any investment proposal would require consideration of alternatives, of which closure of the line would be far and away the most cost-effective option, with buses capable of providing a much better and far more reliable service. However, any closure proposal would cause an almighty row, being seen as the start of a slippery slope and so-forth, so the attitude seems to be that it is better to let sleeping dogs lie.

This is the nub of the problem, without a doubt. That the line has survived at all is a bit of an oddity. It's all down to how unreliable the Bwlch Goginan / Crimea Pass road used to be and Trawsfynydd nucleur flasks, if I recall correctly.

In the current political climate, I suspect that even partial closure is more or less impossible but that investment is very hard to justify. One way of forcing the issue might be an asset transfer with ownership of the line being transferred from Network Rail to TfW as is being done with the core valley lines. With bus services in Wales due to be regulated, presumably by TfW, the way to confront the issue might be to land it wholly in TfW's lap. Just a thought.

 

[Meerkat]

Could electric buses make it that far up and over Crimea?
Offer that as a replacement and the rail fundamentalists are going to be really struggling unless they allow them to haul slate waste out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could electric buses make it that far up and over Crimea?

I don't see why not. The MK route (which seems to have finished now, it's been diesel the last week or two, but it was workable, I expect the trial contract was just over) is/was about 2 hours end to end. Not as hilly, but it could gain the charge back by regen down the other side.

Offer that as a replacement and the rail fundamentalists are going to be really struggling unless they allow them to haul slate waste out.[/QUOTE]

This is a general concern I have which I think will come to the fore within 10-20 years - it would be similarly hard to justify the Far North Line (or even the WHL) against Stagecoach/Citylink with battery powered coaches (which would be easier to do than buses as you've got all that space under the high floor for batteries).

As I've said upthread what would be good would be to make Betws the heart of a quality National Park bus network, ideally electric, a bit like Windermere is of Stagey's excellent Lakes network - I really think losing the railway from there would both cause issues and be politically unpalatable. I do however think the southern section is a serious tunnel rockfall or landslip away from abandonment, particularly as if it was you could easily run a 2-hourly clockface service with one unit and crew (and one engine in steam train staff working) - it would save a packet - if the tours want to go down there they could be invited to pay for the cost of the extra infrastructure needed.

It's very much a line of two halves, and I think in some ways it's like a gangrenous leg with the bottom half serving almost nobody effectively (albeit very pretty scenery) but the top half being really quite useful and potentially more so if the bottom half wasn't dragging it down.

I do wonder if it might be worth an experiment - perhaps do something like run 3 trains per day over the full length (first and last train plus one around lunchtime) and 2 hourly clockface to Betws the rest of the day with a railway bus connection to Blaenau at those times (and the gap in the Takt by the all-the-way service around lunchtime plugged with a bus to Betws and back), and see if that causes increased usage? Not the full package, but a less rubbish timetable would really help.

 

[krus_aragon]

I do wonder if it might be worth an experiment - perhaps do something like run 3 trains per day over the full length (first and last train plus one around lunchtime) and 2 hourly clockface to Betws the rest of the day with a railway bus connection to Blaenau at those times (and the gap in the Takt by the all-the-way service around lunchtime plugged with a bus to Betws and back), and see if that causes increased usage? Not the full package, but a less rubbish timetable would really help.

You could do a two-hourly service along the current route, passing at Llanrwst North, at the cost of an extra unit and staff, which could be justified as a summer-time trial. You could also throw in a shuttle service to Llanrwst North (at least) while the southern-most unit is off in Blaenau, though I'd prefer a two-hourly bus service complementing it, with integrated ticketing just like they used to do .

I ran some back-of-envelope numbers on this over the summer as I tried to work out what the Eisteddfod timetable could be. (I didn't consider shuttles as far as Betws though.)

I might try to come up with some new ideas along your lines one of these dark evenings...