Excess Procedure for no minimum fare before 10am

[First class]

Hi,

Through the course of my duties, I've noticed a sharp increase in the number of customers travelling with a YP railcard before 10am AND not meeting the minimum fare condition by about £10 or so.

(Effectively, the YP railcard is pretty much a waste of time to use on the Merseyrail network before 10am).

Now, a Penalty Fare cannot be issued, (unless the railcard is invalid or not held), so in my opinion i've got a few options:

1) Sell a entirely new ticket as a full price single (as the customer does not hold a valid ticket)
2) Excess the ticket to £12 (the minimum fare) making it valid
3) Excess the ticket to the undiscounted fare, (a 1/3 increase).

Can anyone comment on why you CAN'T excess to £12. My own thoughts are that 1+3 are definitely allowed depending on how much discretion is being given, with (2) being quite harsh, but is it a valid excess?

Additionally, if someone elects to pay the minimum fare of £12 at a TVM (unaware the undiscounted ticket is cheaper), and they board a train, later realising they have forgotten their railcard- is the Penalty Fare twice that fare, (£24), or the standard £20? The £12 minimum fare could possibly be the highest priced Anytime ticket.

 

[CarterUSM]

I do not know for sure, but I would hazard a guess that you cannot do this because you are not supposed to. We do not have penalty fares in Scotland, so option 1 as you described, is always the action I take every time.

 

[mickey]

Additionally, if someone elects to pay the minimum fare of £12 at a TVM (unaware the undiscounted ticket is cheaper), and they board a train, later realising they have forgotten their railcard- is the Penalty Fare twice that fare, (£24), or the standard £20? The £12 minimum fare could possibly be the highest priced Anytime ticket.

I think if someone has paid £12 for a ticket that would probably not have cost more than a fiver (on Merseyrail there's not much above that) had they bought the right one it would be a bit harsh to impose any kind of penalty fare at all! You may be supposed to but I don't think I could ever bring myself to enforce that rule.

The nice option would be (3), though I suppose it depends where they buy their ticket and whether they were warned they shouldn't use it before 10am. (1) seems fair too.

 

[John @ home]

Can anyone comment on why you CAN'T excess to £12.

Do you mean you are instructed not to issue an excess to £12, or the technology is configured not to allow you to issue an excess to £12?

An excess to £12 is appropriate where the undiscounted fare is more than £12 but less than £18.20.

 

[First class]

The technology is nothing more than a RSP4407 pad.

This is the scenario I am most interested in:

I board a train checking tickets at 0830 on Monday morning. I come across a customer who has purchased a ticket in advance, (yesterday). The ticket is a Off-Peak Day Return from Chester-Liverpool and discounted with a YP railcard.

1) The ticket type is not valid at this time due to the peak restriction
2) The railcard is not valid for use before 10am as the £12 minimum fare has not been met.

I have several options:

1) Charge for an entirely new single/return ticket priced at £4.60/£6.20
2) Excess the ticket to an undiscounted SDR costing £3.30

Both of these are valid methods for obtaining a correct fare from the customer. Which one applies is down to discretion.

I am making an ASSUMPTION that I can't do the following (theoretically):

3) Tell the railcard holder that for that ticket to be valid with the railcard, they must pay an excess of £9.10 to meet the minimum fare condition.
They do not have access to the full range of tickets as an opportunity existed to sort it out before boarding.

Does the NRCoC allow such an excess to occur?

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Another question:

Would the following quote from the DfT Penalty Fare Guidance be sufficient for a Merseyrail Penalty Fare Appeal to be successful, as no Merseyrail CIS/PIS boards show any warnings.

4.23 As well as the fixed notices required by the rules, penalty fares warnings should be shown in the departure information for each penalty fares train shown on customer information screens and indicator boards at stations. For example, 'Please buy your ticket before boarding as penalty fares apply to this train'. This is especially important at larger stations, where penalty fares apply to certain trains but not others.

 

[dan_atki]

Another question:

Would the following quote from the DfT Penalty Fare Guidance be sufficient for a Merseyrail Penalty Fare Appeal to be successful, as no Merseyrail CIS/PIS boards show any warnings.

4.23 As well as the fixed notices required by the rules, penalty fares warnings should be shown in the departure information for each penalty fares train shown on customer information screens and indicator boards at stations. For example, 'Please buy your ticket before boarding as penalty fares apply to this train'. This is especially important at larger stations, where penalty fares apply to certain trains but not others.

On a side note, I don't think I've ever seen such warnings on departure boards! The latest I've seen is 'Groupsave tickets are not valid on this train' for XC services on SWT stations and more recently 'Off Peak Tickets are not valid on this train' - a sweeping statement that may not be quite correct.

I'm not so sure this is basis to have a successful appeal, though. The wording is 'should' rather than 'must'...

 

[nedchester]

I think if someone has paid £12 for a ticket that would probably not have cost more than a fiver (on Merseyrail there's not much above that) had they bought the right one it would be a bit harsh to impose any kind of penalty fare at all! You may be supposed to but I don't think I could ever bring myself to enforce that rule.

The nice option would be (3), though I suppose it depends where they buy their ticket and whether they were warned they shouldn't use it before 10am. (1) seems fair too.

I think it would be entirely unfair to charge £12 or issue a brand new ticket.

Excess up to the full SDR fine but I suspect that it is easy for railcard holders to forget (genuinely) the before 10am rule.

 

[clagmonster]

I believe that clause 12 of the conditions of carriage is relevent here:
"12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such
as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can
be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train
Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you
are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price
paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket
available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that
train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and
publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

In order to sell a new ticket or a penalty fare, part b needs it to be made clear in the notices and publications of the train companies that passengers in this scenario will be charged for a new ticket or penalty fare. I think a reasonable place to look is the YP railcard terms and conditions. On minimum fares they say:
"7.A £12 minimum fare applies for journeys made at or before 10am Monday to Friday excluding Advance Fares.This minimum fare does not apply on Public Holidays or during July and August. Please refer to minimum fares."
http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/buy-16-25-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions

This directs us to the following:
"Minimum fares / Time restrictions
Please remember that for all journeys made at or before 10am Monday to Friday, a £12 minimum fare applies. If you travel regularly before 10am then a weekly or monthly season ticket may be more appropriate (a Railcard discount will not apply). However, there is NO minimum fare on Public Holidays and during July or August. For full details of minimum fares, please ask at your local staff station or National Rail licensed Travel Agents."

As can be seen, this does not mention that a new ticket will have to be purchased if one travels with a discounted less than £12 ticket before 10:00 on a weekday. It does mention that for full details that you should ask at a staffed booking office, perhaps someone with access to the information that booking clerks have could tell us what the responses that they could give are. Regardless, it isn't made clear that a new ticket must be purchased so we must use part a. This states that an excess fare would be payable and that this excess fare would be the differenct between the fare paid and the fare for the lowest price ticket for immediate travel. In First Class' scenario, this would be option 2, an excess to an undiscounted day return. If it was in the off-peak time, but before 10:00, I would say an excess to a cheap day return.

 

[mickey]

I think it would be entirely unfair to charge £12 or issue a brand new ticket.

Excess up to the full SDR fine but I suspect that it is easy for railcard holders to forget (genuinely) the before 10am rule.

You haven't quite understood...
This is where the customer has paid £12 as a minimum fare but the ordinary undiscounted ticket costs less than this. The customer in FC's example had forgotten his railcard, which theoretically makes him liable to a fine and/or have to buy a new ticket. I said I thought it would be unfair as he has effectively (though not officially) already paid a 'fine' of a more expensive ticket than he needed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This states that an excess fare would be payable and that this excess fare would be the differenct between the fare paid and the fare for the lowest price ticket for immediate travel. In First Class' scenario, this would be option 2, an excess to an undiscounted day return.

Even if FC's option (1) were chosen, it should only be a single fare as the return half of the customer's ticket would still be valid to go home later that day (Merseyrail has no PM peak/railcard restrictions). I agree with clagmonster's interpretation, however, and think the excess rule should apply.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

But if you're making the CDR up to £12, it's still not valid at 0830. Surely a new ticket is the only option?

 

[mickey]

But if you're making the CDR up to £12, it's still not valid at 0830. Surely a new ticket is the only option?

I assumed we were talking about a SDR not a CDR.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Read the example again

 

[yorkie]

I board a train checking tickets at 0830 on Monday morning. I come across a customer who has purchased a ticket in advance, (yesterday). The ticket is a Off-Peak Day Return from Chester-Liverpool and discounted with a YP railcard.

1) The ticket type is not valid at this time due to the peak restriction
2) The railcard is not valid for use before 10am as the £12 minimum fare has not been met.

I have several options:

1) Charge for an entirely new single/return ticket priced at £4.60/£6.20
2) Excess the ticket to an undiscounted SDR costing £3.30

If a customer is on an off peak ticket when the restriction code prevents its use at that time then you should excess to the appropriate anytime fare. You should not be charging for a new ticket. You should know that.

Both of these are valid methods for obtaining a correct fare from the customer. Which one applies is down to discretion.

I don't think so. Experienced RPIs here have said that if a customer is on an off peak ticket at peak time they should be excessed.

I am making an ASSUMPTION that I can't do the following (theoretically):

3) Tell the railcard holder that for that ticket to be valid with the railcard, they must pay an excess of £9.10 to meet the minimum fare condition.

I find the idea that someone who has a ticket can be asked to pay an excess greater than the cost of someone with no ticket quite laughable and an absolute joke that it's even being asked. I think that Liverpool to Harwich train is going to have potential customer service issues if it gets off the ground...


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Another question:

Would the following quote from the DfT Penalty Fare Guidance be sufficient for a Merseyrail Penalty Fare Appeal to be successful, as no Merseyrail CIS/PIS boards show any warnings.

This is unrelated to the previous question, yes?

If there are insufficient notices then of course a penalty fare appeal should be successful and the whole scheme should be revealed as not complying with legislation and abandoned if that is the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But if you're making the CDR up to £12, it's still not valid at 0830. Surely a new ticket is the only option?

No, if you're on a CDR when not valid it should be excessed to an SDR. In this case because it's prior to 10am and the fare is less than £12, the excess is not just to the discounted SDR but to the full SDR.

 

[Ferret]

I'm of the same opinion as Yorkie - the rules on excessing off peaks being used before time are pretty straight forward! One of the more simple situations to deal with from my point of view