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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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edwin_m

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I chose my words you quote with great care, including the punctuation, and that's very important. Note I said 'out'.

It's not what every poll since 2017 may have said that matters now. It's what people are saying this week. Can you explain how we get the nation to rally around Remain in the few days we have left, given we who desire it have failed over the last 4 years? I'm afraid there is no leader with the charisma to do it. I only wish there were.

Even if we did get another poll it would need to have a near 60:40 majority to settle it. As things stand today that would be more likely to go against Remain, and I hate having to say that. There are many we could blame for all this, but having an opposition of such incompetent third (so high?) raters has certainly helped the Brexit cause more than hindered it. That was probably inevitable once both Labour and Conservative committed to Brexit after the 2017 election, especially with Labour having a lifelong Euro-sceptic as their figurehead.

Ilkley Moor to Remain!
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I'm not going into the semantics but I've read your post again and it still conveys to me that you believe the majority wish to leave now. Nor have you provided any evidence for this (and you've been saying similar for several weeks). And I don't see why, if the government takes 52:48 as a mandate to leave on the hardest possible terms, a similar majority the other way shouldn't be a mandate to remain.

I agree with your other points, that the Remain campaign has been poorly led with Labour in particular bearing a large share of the blame for this mess, also the pro-Remain conservatives fighting their campaign by Queensbury rules when their opponents within the party were cage fighting. The likes of Kier Starmer have been showing more leadership lately, but I also agree it's probably too little too late.
 
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Peter Kelford

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Why would we want harmonisation of social policies, out of interest? Why is this desirable?

It would reduce the immigration that we Brits are phobic about, because a level playing field would evenly distribute jobs opportunities around Europe.
 

Bletchleyite

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I do not deny that the UK makes a net contribution to E.U funding. I do not say it will not be missed but I do dispute that the amount ( while obviously significant) is a black-hole compared to the economy of the UK. The E.U is not going to come to a halt. Priorities will have to found. Abuse will have to be tightened up on ( think Hungry). Further adhesion to the E.U will be delayed or annulled.

I didn't compare it to the UK's economy, I simply stated it was a black hole - which it is if they are going to have to do the things stated to make up the shortfall. That's the main reason they don't want us to leave. We have otherwise been an absolute nuisance from day one.
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree with your other points, that the Remain campaign has been poorly led with Labour in particular bearing a large share of the blame for this mess, also the pro-Remain conservatives fighting their campaign by Queensbury rules when their opponents within the party were cage fighting. The likes of Kier Starmer have been showing more leadership lately, but I also agree it's probably too little too late.

Both campaigns were dirty. I remain (ha!) with my view that the campaigns should have been banned outright and a series of television, radio, online and print publications commissioned to give facts and facts only (and emphasize unknowns).
 

Killingworth

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I'm not going into the semantics but I've read your post again and it still conveys to me that you believe the majority wish to leave now. Nor have you provided any evidence for this (and you've been saying similar for several weeks). And I don't see why, if the government takes 52:48 as a mandate to leave on the hardest possible terms, a similar majority the other way shouldn't be a mandate to remain.

The majority, and we have to be very careful about defining a majority, probably do still think remaining is right. They've been beaten into submission by the ceaseless barrage of emotive and badly reasoned discourse dished out by some elements of the media, some lack lustre MPs and an assorted band of others.

However, contrarily, the same electorate would probably vote today to 'get it over with', which effectively means leave. Irrational to us I know, but that's how it's playing. We can't tackle this issue without appreciating it's strength and the feeling that now exists. We may not be but the nation is bored with it. It's had enough.

There's no coherent remain cabinet and leader in sight to vote for. Would that it were otherwise - but I'm too old to start co-ordinating one now, is anyone else? My sons are too busy trying to dance around the problems they're being set with their day jobs. (A grandson might - if he were a decade or two older.)

Just looking at the Johnson family his sister Rachel and brother Jo would both get my vote, but they're standing back. I'd love to see a real champion strong enough to take the huge amount of flak to be thrown their way. I've been wanting to see that since Cameron tried to sell his deal, limply.

But to wrest a second referendum from the hardliners would potentially delay matters another 6 months. I just can't see that happening, but on past form the Brexiteers would wipe the floor as much from impatience to get on with it, whatever 'it' may be, as by sound argument. The meek may inherit the earth, but in the meantime the bully boys rule the roost.
 

Killingworth

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Further to the above, for those who believe, as I do, that Remain is still the right course, the challenge is to persuade the populace that tearing the whole thing up and forgetting about it is the right course. Under a super fit, strong, remaining leader. Wearing body armour. Cometh the hour where is that superhuman woman or man? This isn't a joking matter.
 

Bletchleyite

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Just saw an opinion poll about a possible outcome of a new referendum. It might be even closer than the last one: https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1186263324075446272

Some Remainers think our reputation has been damaged so badly that we now can't not leave. I'm starting to feel that way, though I would as things stand vote Remain.

I think a poll would also have to include WTO rules as an option. It would be unlikely to win, but without it I think there could be issues going forward. AV could be used to avoid wasted votes/tactical voting.
 

nlogax

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Some Remainers think our reputation has been damaged so badly that we now can't not leave. I'm starting to feel that way, though I would as things stand vote Remain.

I already feel that way. Sometimes things need to be broken before they can be properly fixed. The UK needs to leave - with a deal - and then reassess a generation later once all its trade agreements are finally in place.
 

edwin_m

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I already feel that way. Sometimes things need to be broken before they can be properly fixed. The UK needs to leave - with a deal - and then reassess a generation later once all its trade agreements are finally in place.
But why should I, my family and everyone else I know be impoverished (in opportunity as well as economically) simply to satisfy some right wing ego trip?
 

nlogax

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But why should I, my family and everyone else I know be impoverished (in opportunity as well as economically) simply to satisfy some right wing ego trip?

Because 'Will o'the People' or whomever it is. The genie has been let out of the bottle, a referendum has been decided by the electorate and the PM of the time stated that the outcome would be honored, regardless of the exercise being legally advisory in nature.

Doesn't matter that the margin was slimmer than a credit card and about the same as Farage's own benchmark for re-running it had things not gone in Leave's favor. Doesn't matter that the voters were lied to - on both sides. Doesn't matter that the reasons for leaving are asinine or defy any sound financial or social benefit. Doesn't matter that it's going to make millions of people poorer or restrict opportunities for young people. Doesn't matter that this will likely lead to a much smaller United Kingdom than the one we started with, and where the gap between rich or poor will become wider than ever. This is an 'adventure' (for want of a much better word) that we're nationally are going have to embark on. That's it. That's the deal.
 

DerekC

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This is an 'adventure' (for want of a much better word) that we're nationally are going have to embark on. That's it. That's the deal.

I think that's actually a good word for the way the Johnsonites look at it - and particularly BoJo himself. He sees himself as a born leader of a country in crisis (a la Churchill) and he saw his opportunity. Whether or not it was necessary to have a crisis in the first place doesn't come into it.

I already feel that way. Sometimes things need to be broken before they can be properly fixed. The UK needs to leave - with a deal - and then reassess a generation later once all its trade agreements are finally in place.

Regretfully I think that may be right. Looking for a silver lining in this large thundercloud, at least we won't have the total embarrassment of Farage and his co-loonies occupying seats in the European Parliament and insulting everyone in sight just for the hell of it. For that reason alone I think many in the EU will be glad to see the back of us (which is, of course, just what NF wants).
 

Puffing Devil

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Because 'Will o'the People' or whomever it is. The genie has been let out of the bottle, a referendum has been decided by the electorate and the PM of the time stated that the outcome would be honored, regardless of the exercise being legally advisory in nature.

Doesn't matter that the margin was slimmer than a credit card and about the same as Farage's own benchmark for re-running it had things not gone in Leave's favor. Doesn't matter that the voters were lied to - on both sides. Doesn't matter that the reasons for leaving are asinine or defy any sound financial or social benefit. Doesn't matter that it's going to make millions of people poorer or restrict opportunities for young people. Doesn't matter that this will likely lead to a much smaller United Kingdom than the one we started with, and where the gap between rich or poor will become wider than ever. This is an 'adventure' (for want of a much better word) that we're nationally are going have to embark on. That's it. That's the deal.

You'll find that those outside of the Tory Party disagree with this position.
 

Puffing Devil

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Again, that doesn't matter. Those outside of the Tory party - and some inside - have been trying to fix this for over three years. It hasn't worked. At his point there is only one way out of this Westminster purgatory.

Agree - a legally binding referendum followed by a general election.

Any referendum will be subject to greater scrutiny as it would be legally binding and less susceptible to improper manipulation, on either side.

A General Election will not solve the issue - many people will not vote Tory, despite wanting out, and the reverse position also applies.

Let people vote now on the "deal" now that the impact is known and we all know what the impact would be and what the actual deal is.
 

Peter Kelford

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Why didn't we use a qualifying majority system in 2016? The way the polls went just 1m more people needed to show up to the polls to do so. Furthermore, why doesn't one use an electronic voting system whereby the public is able to not go to polling stations?
 

Bletchleyite

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Why didn't we use a qualifying majority system in 2016? The way the polls went just 1m more people needed to show up to the polls to do so. Furthermore, why doesn't one use an electronic voting system whereby the public is able to not go to polling stations?

If you don't want to go to a polling station you can postal vote. The problem with electronic systems is the possibility of hacking.
 

Howardh

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Many of us would love that to happen but where are the parliamentary numbers for a confirmatory referendum? As you allude to, a General Election isn't going to sway numbers.
If the government - well, the ERG part of the government - see Brexit drifting away then they might go for that as their best last chance, especially if the opinion polls are still Pro-Brexit with/without deal. If a pollster rang me (they have done twice in the last few years!!) I'd probably tell them I want a rock-hard Brexit*, so when the numbers filter through the government might look and say "yes, we're guaranteed a win here" and put it back to the country!!

*For any new readers, I want the opposite...a hard remain!
 

Senex

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Euro, Schengen.

**Although to be honest I hate the Euro coins, too fiddly, but I'd rather have that than leave the EU.

I hate the very name "Euro" for the currency too — but I still wish we had joined in both that and Schengen and contributed to the development of both as insiders rather than do the usual British thing of sitting on the sidelines sniping.
 

Howardh

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Euro could have been called "Schilling" and make everyone feel at home!

Anything but "Dollar"!! But I agree, "Euro's" not the most lovable name. Schillings divided into Florins (or the other way round).
 

edwin_m

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Any name that was the same as somebody's previous currency would have been confusing in that country and unacceptable favouritism in all the others. It would also have to be readily pronounceable in however many different languages. So there probably weren't many options open.
 
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