When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[ainsworth74]

Does it have good bus links? Bus links to where? The bus to Scarborough is only every 30 minutes. Coastliner only every 2 hours from West Yorkshire.

The X93 linking Middlesbrough and Whitby every hour through the day and taking just under 70 minutes so around ten to twenty minutes faster than the train. During summer the service runs more frequently at peak times and for a wider portion of the day.

 

[yorksrob]

The X93 linking Middlesbrough and Whitby every hour through the day and taking just under 70 minutes so around ten to twenty minutes faster than the train. During summer the service runs more frequently at peak times and for a wider portion of the day.

I suspect that there are a significant proportion of passengers for whom the speed differential would not be enough to make them switch modes.

 

[ainsworth74]

I suspect that there are a significant proportion of passengers for whom the speed differential would not be enough to make them switch modes.

A significant proportion of a very small number.

 

[AndyHudds]

Some places would kill for a 30 minute bus frequency.......

Well yeah, fair point but I would expect that route to be every 15 minutes in particular during the summer season. Day trippers from the rest of Yorkshire often get the train to Scarborough and then the bus on to Whitby. In summer it's heaving standing room only.

 

[yorksrob]

A significant proportion of a very small number.

Including the large number of end to end passengers using the line currently.

 

[Meerkat]

Some places would kill for a 30 minute bus frequency.......

Bit more frequent than the train too!
As for the line being remarkable popular.....it’s a little train every couple of hours, not Indian Railways!

 

[R G NOW.]

I expect there are a number of people using the line to get to work and will probably have season tickets as well. So is it used mainly for working people or tourists?.

 

[R G NOW.]

Bit more frequent than the train too!
As for the line being remarkable popular.....it’s a little train every couple of hours, not Indian Railways!

Needs to be hourly. We have a two hourly service to Worcester or Great Malvern, but that would be better hourly instead of terminating in Gloucester.

 

[ainsworth74]

Including the large number of end to end passengers using the line currently.

Yes, which represents a very small number in the context of even railways around Middlesbrough let alone the wider network. Whitby itself generates passenger usage figures of only 138,000 entries/exits the rest of the stations between Nunthorpe and Whitby (excluding those two) manage to muster another 95,000 between them. We're talking about stations that manage less than 250,000 entries exits per year. That's about the same as Saltburn manages by itself (237,000) and less than Redcar Central (344,000)!

Again, this is a lowly utilised railway line. There is no case in my view for closing it but there equally isn't a case for hugely expensive improvements to lower journey times by raising line speeds, to cut the corner at Battersby, to re-signal the line from token blocks or to massively boost frequencies or train length.

Improve the frequency to roughly two hourly sure that seems a reasonable idea or trying to scrounge an extra unit for strengthening on key services on summer Saturdays but that's about it. The line does not justify anything beyond what is proposed and possible some very modest further enhancements.

 

[ainsworth74]

I expect there are a number of people using the line to get to work and will probably have season tickets as well. So is it used mainly for working people or tourists?.

Have you looked at the timetable? At all? There might be some people who use the train to get to work in Whitby (and there are a lot of school children) but Whitby isn't exactly a massive employer and, again, everyone who works in Whitby will almost certainly have access to a car. No one is using the train to get to work to Middlesbrough now and even when the new service starts vanishingly few are likely to use it then due to the times.

Needs to be hourly. We have a two hourly service to Worcester or Great Malvern, but that would be better hourly instead of terminating in Gloucester.

Pardon? Hourly? The level of investment required to enable hourly running would be extraordinary. The line struggles to justify a two hourly service as an enhancement let alone hourly! I have to ask have you actually looked at any information about the line and the area it serves?

 

[R G NOW.]

Have you looked at the timetable? At all? There might be some people who use the train to get to work in Whitby (and there are a lot of school children) but Whitby isn't exactly a massive employer and, again, everyone who works in Whitby will almost certainly have access to a car. No one is using the train to get to work to Middlesbrough now and even when the new service starts vanishingly few are likely to use it then due to the times.



Pardon? Hourly? The level of investment required to enable hourly running would be extraordinary. The line struggles to justify a two hourly service as an enhancement let alone hourly! I have to ask have you actually looked at any information about the line and the area it serves?

I had looked at google maps and you seem to have a lot a places there where people can work. I also assumed they also travelled out to places like Leeds and Manchester like some travel from Cardiff into London to work. I must admit they do now have fast electric trains now.

 

[Marton]

I expect there are a number of people using the line to get to work and will probably have season tickets as well. So is it used mainly for working people or tourists?.

Even if it were used for work no one would buy a season ticket.

An Esk Valley Railcard gives 1/3 off fit £10pa. much cheaper.

 

[Meerkat]

If fares are that low then there is definitely no case for investment - a third off makes an anytime return less than eight quid!

 

[Ploughman]

The X93 linking Middlesbrough and Whitby every hour through the day and taking just under 70 minutes so around ten to twenty minutes faster than the train. During summer the service runs more frequently at peak times and for a wider portion of the day.

But would it be any use to those in the villages down in the valley?

 

[markindurham]

But would it be any use to those in the villages down in the valley?

Exactly. It's called a train SERVICE for a reason. The X93 struggles to get out of the top end of Robin Hoods Bay & back onto the A171; goodness knows what it would be like on some of the lanes into the Esk Valley.

 

[Meerkat]

How many of the people in those villages actually rely on the train - ie do not have access to cars?

 

[ainsworth74]

I had looked at google maps and you seem to have a lot a places there where people can work.

Like where? There's basically Middlesbrough and Whitby on the line itself.

I also assumed they also travelled out to places like Leeds and Manchester like some travel from Cardiff into London to work. I must admit they do now have fast electric trains now.

So from December you can leave Whitby at 0633 and arrive into Leeds three hours and ten minutes later at 0943. You can then return at 1614 and arrive back into Whitby three hours and eleven minutes later at 1925. Or alternatively leave Leeds at 1914 and arrive back two hours and fifty-nine minutes later at 2213. So a six hour and twenty minute round trip. Meanwhile you can travel, by car, in the morning peak in around an hour and thirty to around two hours and a similar time returning. So around three to four hours.

Now you'll forgive me but if anyone is actually doing this as their daily commute they're going to be driving not taking the train.

York is more doable but even there driving is around a two to three hour round trip whilst the train is a over a five hour round trip. Again, people are driving not taking the train.

But would it be any use to those in the villages down in the valley?

No of course not and that's part of the reason why I'm keen for the service to remain and maybe even be slightly improved.

 

[HSTEd]

Apparently in Japan they have some ~50mph sections which become ~60mph sections for tilting trains.

Just a thought.
But that would be a custom unit build, and as far as I know Stadler (the king of Custom) has never built a tilting train.

 

[yorksrob]

Bit more frequent than the train too!
As for the line being remarkable popular.....it’s a little train every couple of hours, not Indian Railways!

With the exception of passengers on the roof, it seems as crowded as Indian Railways at times.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, which represents a very small number in the context of even railways around Middlesbrough let alone the wider network. Whitby itself generates passenger usage figures of only 138,000 entries/exits the rest of the stations between Nunthorpe and Whitby (excluding those two) manage to muster another 95,000 between them. We're talking about stations that manage less than 250,000 entries exits per year. That's about the same as Saltburn manages by itself (237,000) and less than Redcar Central (344,000)!

Again, this is a lowly utilised railway line. There is no case in my view for closing it but there equally isn't a case for hugely expensive improvements to lower journey times by raising line speeds, to cut the corner at Battersby, to re-signal the line from token blocks or to massively boost frequencies or train length.

Improve the frequency to roughly two hourly sure that seems a reasonable idea or trying to scrounge an extra unit for strengthening on key services on summer Saturdays but that's about it. The line does not justify anything beyond what is proposed and possible some very modest further enhancements.

Well, lets get the two hourly service and strengthened trains in place and take it from there. The problem is, without capital investment, you're not going to get even that.

 

[Starmill]

Including the large number of end to end passengers using the line currently.

"large number"

I really think that this thread has gone way, way away from reality.

 

[yorksrob]

"large number"

I really think that this thread has gone way, way away from reality.

I would say "large number" for a route that has a very impractical, poor service.

 

[Marton]

As someone who uses the suburban end of this line several times a week I have restrained myself from commenting so far beyond a few facts.

It mustn’t be forgotten that there are two parts to this line. The suburban and the rural.

The suburban is thriving. I now find I have people sitting next to me on the morning trains because there are no free pairs of seats. Five years ago it was almost empty.

When I use the trains to or from Whitby they could very rarely be described as full. Never rammed except on some holidays.

As Starmill says reality has been lost.

 

[yorksrob]

As someone who uses the suburban end of this line several times a week I have restrained myself from commenting so far beyond a few facts.

It mustn’t be forgotten that there are two parts to this line. The suburban and the rural.

The suburban is thriving. I now find I have people sitting next to me on the morning trains because there are no free pairs of seats. Five years ago it was almost empty.

When I use the trains to or from Whitby they could very rarely be described as full. Never rammed except on some holidays.

As Starmill says reality has been lost.

You've clearly not been on the same trains as I have. I travel the route several times a year and frequently find the trains full and standing, and on some very non-descript weekends of the year.

There are always hoardes of people getting on the 10:19 from Middlesborough.

 

[Starmill]

You've clearly not been on the same trains as I have.

So the case for investment should now be based entirely on your anecdotal evidence, in ignorance of anyone else's?

 

[Killingworth]

So the case for investment should now be based entirely on your anecdotal evidence, in ignorance of anyone else's?

Put simplistically, if half the trains are full and half the trains are empty the average load is 50%. However the passenger perception is that all the trains are full, which they are when they travel.

 

[yorksrob]

So the case for investment should now be based entirely on your anecdotal evidence, in ignorance of anyone else's?

Actually, I'd rather the case were based on what we know works similar railway routes across the country, linking urban areas with honeypot tourist resorts.

What works is a decent, user-friendly timetable with adequate capacity.

The evidence is all around the country.

 

[yorksrob]

Put simplistically, if half the trains are full and half the trains are empty the average load is 50%. However the passenger perception is that all the trains are full, which they are when they travel.

I would suggest that pretty much every route in the country has trains which are half empty or emptier at some times. Take a train out of Charing Cross or Victoria at half ten on a weekday evening, or six o'clock in the morning and see how many people you're sharing a carriage with. Heck, I've even been on the Victoria line when the carriage has been less than half full.

But according to some on here, every train at every hour of the day on the Whitby line must be full and standing to justify any investment.

 

[Meerkat]

Actually, I'd rather the case were based on what we know works similar railway routes across the country, linking urban areas with honeypot tourist resorts.

What works is a decent, user-friendly timetable with adequate capacity.

The evidence is all around the country.

You left out ‘quick’. The Whitby line is very much not quick, and this thread has shown how it can not be made quick.

 

[yorksrob]

You left out ‘quick’. The Whitby line is very much not quick, and this thread has shown how it can not be made quick.

It makes little difference. If it did, the trains would all be nearly empty - which they aren't.