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When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?
- Thread starter yorksrob
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Thought I’d do a fact check.
According to the sectional appendix, there are 5 open / half barrier crossings on the branch, all of which have some form of speed restriction, and a further footpath crossing with a speed restriction. 3 of these crossings are immediately next to stations. Of the 12 speed restrictions (6 each way), 3 are ‘ STOP’, ie the train must stop before traversing the crossing. All of these are immediately beyond station platforms, and therefore there is no time loss. Only one of the remaining 9 is 10mph (for passenger trains), and that is immediately on approach to a station platform, thus the time loss is negligible. Of the 3 crossings / 6 restrictions not next to stations, only Battersby Rd (20mph Down, 15 mph up) is lower than 25mph, and that is adjacent to a 20 restriction for the run into Battersby. Between them, these crossings will cause a maximum of 2 minutes in each direction.
I don’t know about the state of the bridges, but at least one has been replaced in the last year. Also having looked at the data, the route alignment is not good. Not good at all. I can’t see how it can be improved easily.
I think that given the whole line is used by fewer than 1/4 million of a passengers per year, any infrastructure expenditure to reduce journey times on that line would be far better spent reducing journey times elsewhere.
Being pedantic but isn’t there some time lost in one direction - having to stop for the crossing, then start and presumably crawl into the platform?
Also it negates any possible quicker "express" services being introduced in between the current all stations stopper services.
Which raises my other ‘outsider’ question. Are all the stations really necessary, and would it make a worthwhile time difference if any could be closed? There seem rather a lot of them.
Personally I would have the government telling NIMBYs and local bodies, including national parks, “If you want to keep the station you have to build some more demand”.
Personally I would have the government telling NIMBYs and local bodies, including national parks, “If you want to keep the station you have to build some more demand”.
bearhugger
Member
I'm not sure about closing any stations but I think a few could be made into request stops. Perhaps all stations except the token exchange points?
Also how much time is wasted by physically exchanging tokens at Nunthorpe, Battersby, Glaisdale and Whitby? Up to 10 minutes? I assume getting rid of the token machines would need some major resignalling?
When I travel the route, there seem to be plenty getting on and off at random stops. None seem to stand out as never appearing to be used.
This urgent need to speed everything up seems to have been dreamt up by this forum.
The urgent need for the route, as far as I can see, is for more capacity and a decent spread of services throughout the day.
You'd have to install conventional colour light signalling and axle counters/track circuits. Or you'd have to install ETCS the new digital signalling system possibly coming to the ECML in the nearish future and as tested on the Cambrian Line in Wales. Neither option is what you'd call cheap...
I'm not sure I'd go so far as plenty but I don't think there are any that particularly scream out as being candidates for closure. Well, other than Battersby but that's a token exchange point so...
But that attitude does not help Whitby. It is a Cinderella service and needs a fairy godmother to give a better dea.
That is if you can find somewhere to park anywhere near Whitby. Despite taking over large chunks of railway land for a supermarket and car park, all day parking in Whitby is a problem.
Funnilly enough, I've seen passengers getting on/off there on a few occasions as well.
What are you not going to fund in order to pay for this?
You've been lucky then! It only has a usage of about three people per day
Not if they are immediately beyond the platform, and different arrangements apply the other way. Sleights one way, Ruswarp the other (affecting the NYMR expresses!) not sure where the 3rd is.
Nunthorpe is minimal because there is a human there, Battersby 1/2minute, Glaisdale is booked a 3 minute stop. So perhaps 3 minutes could be saved.
Add 2 minutes for LC modernisation, and 5 for the Battersby curve, and you could get Nunthorpe-Whitby down to 65 minutes, Nunthorpe-Glaisdale down to 40. A lot of money - and you still haven't got times that would allow a 2-hourly service, which is frustrating.
03_179
Established Member
I was in Whitby over the weekend.
Parking is a nightmare. £5.80 for a 5 hour stay in one car park. There is a park and ride but this isn't open all year round. We had to get a hotel in 'Boro because Whitby was all booked up (unless I wanted to spend over £250 for a night for me and the family).
October is still busy in town especially Goth Weekends and NYMR event weekends.
November is still busy. I have been there many times at various times of the years and it always has a sizeable number of visitors.
Passing loops DO need to be reinstated to increase the rail traffic and also on event weekends like the above, it would be advantageous to bolster the service. Four or six car trains for an example. Sure a Wednesday in mid December or January won't have as much traffic as a Summer weekend.
Back in BR days we used to have timetabled trains that ran on certain dates on (remember the squiggly line through the times in the timetable?) Why can this be the same now?
Goth Weekends and other events are planned months or a year in advance why can't the same thing apply to the timetable?
I have a lot of good friends who live in Whitby and they all complain at the amount of cars in town which causes a lot of problems (Parking, congestion and bad reputation). Luckily I had an agreed place to park on Saturday or it'd have been an utter nightmare. Sunday was a bit easier as I know a small but less known car park and it was raining. Even so the town was thriving. A friend of mine from 'Boro said recently he'd go to Whitby more if the trains were better or faster. He limits his trip there due to the limited park and the slow pace of the train.
Lets face it. Had the line to Middlesbrough been cut by Beeching (Ernest Marples) then the line from York through to Whitby would have been a lot faster and a lot more used today. But that's another story.
The point is -
Whitby needs more trains.
Whitby needs faster trains.
The Esk Valley line needs investment.
Parking is a nightmare. £5.80 for a 5 hour stay in one car park. There is a park and ride but this isn't open all year round. We had to get a hotel in 'Boro because Whitby was all booked up (unless I wanted to spend over £250 for a night for me and the family).
October is still busy in town especially Goth Weekends and NYMR event weekends.
November is still busy. I have been there many times at various times of the years and it always has a sizeable number of visitors.
Passing loops DO need to be reinstated to increase the rail traffic and also on event weekends like the above, it would be advantageous to bolster the service. Four or six car trains for an example. Sure a Wednesday in mid December or January won't have as much traffic as a Summer weekend.
Back in BR days we used to have timetabled trains that ran on certain dates on (remember the squiggly line through the times in the timetable?) Why can this be the same now?
Goth Weekends and other events are planned months or a year in advance why can't the same thing apply to the timetable?
I have a lot of good friends who live in Whitby and they all complain at the amount of cars in town which causes a lot of problems (Parking, congestion and bad reputation). Luckily I had an agreed place to park on Saturday or it'd have been an utter nightmare. Sunday was a bit easier as I know a small but less known car park and it was raining. Even so the town was thriving. A friend of mine from 'Boro said recently he'd go to Whitby more if the trains were better or faster. He limits his trip there due to the limited park and the slow pace of the train.
Lets face it. Had the line to Middlesbrough been cut by Beeching (Ernest Marples) then the line from York through to Whitby would have been a lot faster and a lot more used today. But that's another story.
The point is -
Whitby needs more trains.
Whitby needs faster trains.
The Esk Valley line needs investment.
And who is paying for this and which line are therefore not upgrading to pay for it?
03_179
Established Member
Well one such pot of money that'd be better spent is the HS2 pot.
Then again we are all speculators not experts.
Town like Whitby (there are more than just one location around our fair land) that need investment on their rail infrastructure and services. There is no magic money tree (despite what barmy boris claims) to fund everything.
bearhugger
Member
Perhaps making some stations request stops could bring it down further from 65 to 60 minutes? Kildale, Ruswarp and possibly 2/3 others? Although (for example) a busy 10:28 from Middlesbrough service on a Saturday having to stop at most stations could have a very tight turnaround at Whitby.
Kildale is another problem too as it is currently just long enough to accomodate a 2 car 156 / 142.
So rather than relieving one of, if not the, busiest mainline in the UK you'd spend money on lines like the Esk Valley?! You'll forgive me if that seems like a crazy idea...
To give a sensible turnround (seems to be 9min minimum) you need to aim at 55min from Nunthorpe, any other option requires a second unit on the branch which rather increases your costs.
NYCC have found £11m + £2.5m grant from the Yorkshire and Humber LEP for doubling the line between Knaresborough and Cattal so that the Leeds-Knaresborough trains can be extended to York. It just happens that the County Councillor who authorised this is a Harrogate Councillor! If only the same could happen for Whitby.
I know some the County Councillors and have already emailed the Leader of NYCC, one of the Whitby Councillors and MP Robert Goodwill who I also know, for their comments.
Watch this space.
03_179
Established Member
To be honest HS2 is more of a vanity project.
The BML is busy as well.
ECML is busy.
MML is busy.
Crazy or not but let's face it HS2 will go massively over budget (if it hasn't already) and that money will come out of the coffers of the other railway schemes.
The BML is busy as well.
ECML is busy.
MML is busy.
Crazy or not but let's face it HS2 will go massively over budget (if it hasn't already) and that money will come out of the coffers of the other railway schemes.
Well it needn't have been built to 250mph standard and alignment. 150mph would have been more than enough for domestic use. That would mean less tunnelling and less viaducts and less property destruction, therefore cheaper to build and more money to spend on existing railways.
Keeping on a 153 which would otherwise go, and running it attached to the current service, must be a marginal cost in the scheme of things.
What are you not going to fund in order to pay for this?
You've been lucky then! It only has a usage of about three people per day
It could be a start/stop point for a walk in which people get a ticket to/from another station for example ?
It could just get more passengers on a Saturday when I tend to go.
It's not a zero sum game!
Funding one scheme does not necessarily mean not funding another - which is most explicit with stuff like HS2 or Crossrail, which won't come out of a rail budget but are specific loans and hypothecated tax revenues based on the idea of revenue being generated by the scheme. So 03_179's idea of taking money out of the HS2 pot freed up by not building it is a complete non-starter for the simple reason that there is no HS2 pot if HS2 isn't being built - the money either literally doesn't exist, or is at the very least it isn't collated and available for other schemes to just grab.
I'd imagine governmental sources for funding to make the Whitby branch more effective transport would come from economic development/cohesion sort of funds, rather than transport-related. So if it is at the expense of some other transport scheme, it would be something like widening single track roads in the Highlands of Scotland that would also come from such funds.
How much cheaper would that be? If it was so much better value, why don't other countries do that?
No - the STOP applies only in the direction for trains starting from the platform. In the other direction, ie approaching the platform wit hthe crossing first, the speeds are 20 (Gypsy Lane), 10 (Sleights) and 20 (Ruswarp).
Oh really. The WCML carries more people in a day than the Whitby line does in a year. The benefits of HS2 are quite simply vast, and spread way beyond the route itself. The benefit of shortening the journey time to Whitby would be, principally, to Whitby. Hardly comparable.
Speak for yourself!
If there was, then it would be prioritised on LX improvements that show the best safety improvement per £ spent. Given the level of traffic on this line, both in terms of numbers of trains and the number of people on them (average about 80/train, throughout its journey east of Nunthorpe), and the linespeed, the level crossing risk is generally low.
European countries with TGV-type lines are all far bigger and less densely populated than UK so 190mph over there and really huge countries like China are 250mph. We aren't really bothered with journey's greater than 200 miles as HS2 is supposed to be for capacity not speed.
03_179
Established Member
I guess working in the Rail industry for 33+ years isn't much use then.
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