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WCML Pendolino refurbishment suggestions and predictions

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Mikey C

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The Pendolinos with their tight profile for tilting seem fairly narrow inside, I'm not sure a 2+2 could ever be justified for First Class. Not justifying it on the Desiros, but 2+2 isn't so bad there for First Class
 
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NewSt

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The Pendolinos with their tight profile for tilting seem fairly narrow inside, I'm not sure a 2+2 could ever be justified for First Class. Not justifying it on the Desiros, but 2+2 isn't so bad there for First Class

No, I don’t believe so, particularly if they’ve got 3 coaches of a rather sub-par product. I don’t understand why they would even want to change it though - the pendolino First Class is one of the best in the country!
 

fgwrich

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Actually, on looking again at pictures, it looks like they actually are (sorry!) - but are a different version of the seat which doesn't seem to suffer from the "metal bar" / thin base cushion issue. Paid more for them, I guess.

They also have a higher back and a different shaped back support.

I have to admit I don't mind the 'Sophia' on the 700s. They're more comfortable than the seats across the rest of the unit, and as you point out, don't seem to suffer from the metal base bar issue either.

However, let's not forget their distant cousin, the Compin Pegasus - a feeble attempt by 'ONE' to increase seat numbers by changing the spacing and wedging in a pair of these awful slimline seats.

https://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3a/Mk3a-TSO/i-2MFwdGK/A

(By distant cousin - Compin {French} and Fansia {Spanish} merged in the early part of 2015 reducing both ranges while significantly growing the rather disliked 'Sophia')
 

Bletchleyite

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No, I don’t believe so, particularly if they’ve got 3 coaches of a rather sub-par product. I don’t understand why they would even want to change it though - the pendolino First Class is one of the best in the country!

Could do with some single seats on the 1 side. Other than that, yes, I'd actually say it was the best (and loadings tend to be low enough that you rarely end up sitting opposite someone anyway).
 

Energy

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Something, perhaps, like a 2+2 layout with leather seating, something like Grammer IC3000s or FISA LEAN, fully window aligned (so 1st spacing) with say half airline half tables and recline?

So basically what SWR have done to the 444s?

Not sure if I'd pay for that or not. It would depend on the markup. Certainly not 1.6x as the classic First Class markup. Maybe 1.2x? My main use case for 1st is a seat that is both window and aisle. However with good legroom and decent sized seatback tables (please not fixed tables in airline seats, they make access difficult) I could still be tempted.
I think so, it would be a way to get much more seating into a pendolino without removing the shop, if the put good seats in (like the Grammar IC3000 or Fisa Lean) with a big enough table for doing work. And price it about 1.2x as you said, then a 50 pound fare would be 60 pounds. I wouldn't include food, maybe 2 plug sockets per person (under seat and at the window end at the table) couple usb ports per person, extra legroom and extra padding. A bit like economy+ or premium economy on airplanes, it's not first or business but it is a little upgrade from economy.
If people want first class, there will be on HS2.
 
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driver_m

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Does that mean the shop can't only not be easily re-configured but can't be easily removed full stop then?

I’m sure it could be removed quite easily, we should find out in the next few weeks what the plans are. End of the day though, the TM still has to be accommodated and they aren’t going to leave a marooned cubbyhole between some sets of seats. I’ll also be very surprised if they decide to start gutting the entire electrical system when it has tilt tech that took a long time to settle down into being reliable. Just because it can be messed around with, it doesn’t mean it should. My own personal preference would be to recreate something similar to the mk3 buffet car in the 695 car. Kitchen & counter with standard seating, or just make it a full utility style coach with bike spaces, TM and luggage racks. Emergency stuff and space for caterers and cleaner to also have a seat and remove this conflict where people lose their mind because the staff dare to put their feet up! If you look at the train now, there’s probably a coach worth of non seating parts.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think to be fair the objection is to staff monopolising Coach K (despite it containing the few valued single seats), not to them having a break. I've not heard anyone objecting to the cleaner occupying one of the "reserved cyclist" seats at the far end of coach A for a break, as they often do. Those seats aren't popular anyway (as distinct to the priority seats on the other side which are in very high demand).

So I'd suggest they can plonk themselves in a windowless Standard row and nobody will mind as nobody wants to sit there anyway.
 

driver_m

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Not sure if the mods will agree as it’s a refurbishment thread, but can we give the seat wibble a rest please? (As has been asked on the other WCML thread). One mans uncomfy plank, is another mans pleasant pillow. I’m sure there is a seat thread on here somewhere.
 

driver_m

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I think to be fair the objection is to staff monopolising Coach K (despite it containing the few valued single seats), not to them having a break. I've not heard anyone objecting to the cleaner occupying one of the "reserved cyclist" seats at the far end of coach A for a break, as they often do. Those seats aren't popular anyway (as distinct to the priority seats on the other side which are in very high demand).

So I'd suggest they can plonk themselves in a windowless Standard row and nobody will mind as nobody wants to sit there anyway.

As a counter, I’d suggest you stop obsessing about the single seats as there is only you that goes on and on about it, if you are going to come out with sarcastic answers like that.
 

Bletchleyite

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As a counter, I’d suggest you stop obsessing about the single seats as there is only you that goes on and on about it, if you are going to come out with sarcastic answers like that.

Absolutely nothing sarcastic about it. It is an issue when staff monopolise a particularly desirable type of seat for First Class passengers when that type of seat is in short supply, and better, as you suggest, for them to be provided a suitable place to sit in Standard accommodation or out of view of passengers e.g. in the kitchen area itself. I am not the only one who has complained about this issue, and there are threads on it with a number of contributors if you have a search.
 

Terry Tait

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I think that the staff work hard and spend a lot of time on their feet so deserve somewhere decent to have a break.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I think that the staff work hard and spend a lot of time on their feet so deserve somewhere decent to have a break.
Unfortunately though they don’t just have a break, they make a horrendous racket especially on southbound trains after Milton Keynes, when they sort of in my experience seem to just give up on the passengers.

This is why I hope there will be a better seating layout on the Pendolino, because atm Coach K is the only carriage with single seats on the right.
 

Goldfish62

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I think so, it would be a way to get much more seating into a pendolino without removing the shop, if the put good seats in (like the Grammar IC3000 or Fisa Lean) with a big enough table for doing work. And price it about 1.2x as you said, then a 50 pound fare would be 60 pounds. I wouldn't include food, maybe 2 plug sockets per person (under seat and at the window end at the table) couple usb ports per person, extra legroom and extra padding. A bit like economy+ or premium economy on airplanes, it's not first or business but it is a little upgrade from economy.
If people want first class, there will be on HS2.
The Pendolinos will be reaching life expiry when (if) HS2 opens around 2030 so any downgrade of the 1st Class would be highly premature.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think that the staff work hard and spend a lot of time on their feet so deserve somewhere decent to have a break.

They do, but not by turning one whole coach into a messroom, blocking some desirable First Class seats. They should be provided their own space away from passenger use, ideally in an area where passengers already are not allowed in order to stop it reducing capacity.
 

VT 390

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No, I don’t believe so, particularly if they’ve got 3 coaches of a rather sub-par product. I don’t understand why they would even want to change it though - the pendolino First Class is one of the best in the country!
I do agree that the Pendolinos are one of the best 1st class carriages but the seats do need a refresh though as some of them are very worn now, but I think the layout should remain the same.
 

driver_m

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Absolutely nothing sarcastic about it. It is an issue when staff monopolise a particularly desirable type of seat for First Class passengers when that type of seat is in short supply, and better, as you suggest, for them to be provided a suitable place to sit in Standard accommodation or out of view of passengers e.g. in the kitchen area itself. I am not the only one who has complained about this issue, and there are threads on it with a number of contributors if you have a search.

Give over, telling them to sit x amount of coaches away from the main part where they work? If you would like to furnish me with the posts about all these people complaining about being unable to sit in those back 3 seats, when others are freely available then I’ll also tell them too. There’s up to 4 coaches of first class seats and when the train is not full, they’re entitled to a break, the same as anyone else. They obviously won’t sit there if the train is full. Hopefully for the staff, this will be recognised during the refurb and this can finally be put to bed.
 

bramling

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As a counter, I’d suggest you stop obsessing about the single seats as there is only you that goes on and on about it

I for one have been on the receiving end of the coach K antics. Once had a journey where it felt like I was in a youth club for the entire time, and on another occasion at the weekend on a Glasgow to Euston journey the sole member of catering staff did everything to "encourage" us to move to another carriage, and then spent large amounts of the journey talking loudly on her mobile phone.
 

driver_m

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I for one have been on the receiving end of the coach K antics. Once had a journey where it felt like I was in a youth club for the entire time, and on another occasion at the weekend on a Glasgow to Euston journey the sole member of catering staff did everything to "encourage" us to move to another carriage, and then spent large amounts of the journey talking loudly on her mobile phone.

Did they actually tell you to get out of the coach?
I’m also not aware of any rule preventing a member of staff using their mobile in the train, in the cab yes, but not in the passenger part.
And as for ‘youth club’ what does that mean? They were noisy? Playing games? Not bowing and being servile enough?
 

Bletchleyite

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Give over, telling them to sit x amount of coaches away from the main part where they work? If you would like to furnish me with the posts about all these people complaining about being unable to sit in those back 3 seats, when others are freely available then I’ll also tell them too. There’s up to 4 coaches of first class seats and when the train is not full, they’re entitled to a break, the same as anyone else. They obviously won’t sit there if the train is full. Hopefully for the staff, this will be recognised during the refurb and this can finally be put to bed.

It's not, with quite a number of crews, only the back row (which I believe is now formally allocated to them on the displays). They actively discourage you from sitting in coach K.

It doesn't matter if the train is full or not. Other than that row, they are available First Class seats, not a messroom. Passengers are entitled to choose their seat from those which are not reserved and do not have a backside sat in them at the time they wish to choose one.

Yes, I too hope this is recognised during the refurb, with the provision of a segregated staff rest area, which will finally solve this issue which has been going on for years (and also more single seats, so they are not as prized and people who want them can easily get them).

As for where to sit, it's at most a couple of hundred metres away. In many businesses, break rooms are a reasonable distance from the work.
 

hexagon789

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I’m sure it could be removed quite easily, we should find out in the next few weeks what the plans are. End of the day though, the TM still has to be accommodated and they aren’t going to leave a marooned cubbyhole between some sets of seats. I’ll also be very surprised if they decide to start gutting the entire electrical system when it has tilt tech that took a long time to settle down into being reliable. Just because it can be messed around with, it doesn’t mean it should. My own personal preference would be to recreate something similar to the mk3 buffet car in the 695 car. Kitchen & counter with standard seating, or just make it a full utility style coach with bike spaces, TM and luggage racks. Emergency stuff and space for caterers and cleaner to also have a seat and remove this conflict where people lose their mind because the staff dare to put their feet up! If you look at the train now, there’s probably a coach worth of non seating parts.

I understand what you're saying but with them moving to an 'upgraded at-seat service' in both classes I just have this niggling feeling they are going to rip the shop out. Hopefully I'm proved wrong on that.
 

Bletchleyite

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I understand what you're saying but with them moving to an 'upgraded at-seat service' in both classes I just have this niggling feeling they are going to rip the shop out. Hopefully I'm proved wrong on that.

I too suspect so. But if they are talking about the trolley service on GWR, it's not "upgraded", it's not fit for purpose. On journeys all the way from the Westcountry to London I've been barely served if at all on a few occasions.
 

hexagon789

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I too suspect so. But if they are talking about the trolley service on GWR, it's not "upgraded", it's not fit for purpose.

Which is my fear exactly. On such a long journey while not everyone may use it, a shop/buffet has its advantages.
 

Goldfish62

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I too suspect so. But if they are talking about the trolley service on GWR, it's not "upgraded", it's not fit for purpose. On journeys all the way from the Westcountry to London I've been barely served if at all on a few occasions.
And of course there's little choice from the trolley. For long journeys you cannot beat a buffet. You can eat and drink at a time of your choosing and can select both hot and cold food.

Unfortunately, First are putting forward the same arguments for Hull Trains now as they were for GWR, in that everyone preferred trolleys, at-seat service as on airlines, etc etc... Next up for the treatment will be West Coast....
 

Bletchleyite

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At-seat service as on airlines would be great - you get served once every hour or two at least and can ring the bell for extras, and there's a wide choice of hot and cold food and drinks. It's basically to the standard of First Class but for the lack of proper crockery and you having to pay for it. The thing is, no TOC has ever implemented at-seat service to that standard in Standard (!), nor do I think they will here either.
 

Energy

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I wonder if they are changing the displays on the doors to be dot matrix or hopefully lcd, their was a trial with lcd ones (see image) but I don't think they have been installed. They do make it a lot easier to read imo
img-78a8969132df694de594c6c15fa452f8
 

greatvoyager

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I wonder if they are changing the displays on the doors to be dot matrix or hopefully lcd, their was a trial with lcd ones (see image) but I don't think they have been installed. They do make it a lot easier to read imo
img-78a8969132df694de594c6c15fa452f8
Similar ones have been installed on some 221s already.
 
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When realistically could the first unit refurbishment be completed?, I would gladly sit in an airline seat if it had a socket or usb (I imagine this will be provided) apart from that and better luggage space, I'm neutral about the shop, only ever used it a few times as I don't drink hot drinks and bring my own food ( thats just me) and resent paying over 3 quid for a can of beer !!

Looking forward to at least seeing the details, nothing's leaking out yet.
 

Mikey C

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When realistically could the first unit refurbishment be completed?, I would gladly sit in an airline seat if it had a socket or usb (I imagine this will be provided) apart from that and better luggage space, I'm neutral about the shop, only ever used it a few times as I don't drink hot drinks and bring my own food ( thats just me) and resent paying over 3 quid for a can of beer !!

Looking forward to at least seeing the details, nothing's leaking out yet.

Having a USB charger as well (rather than just the plug socket like the 80xs) would be a big improvement

Hardly ever used the shop, since the rise of supermarket convenience stores it's so easy to stock up beforehand. It's not as if the majority of UK rail journeys are very long anyway
 

EE Andy b1

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Hardly ever used the shop, since the rise of supermarket convenience stores it's so easy to stock up beforehand. It's not as if the majority of UK rail journeys are very long anyway

It should be about choice, but once there gone then the choice has gone as well. Sounds like a shop of some sort is staying for now as a trial on Anglo/Scottish services.
 
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