WCML Pendolino refurbishment suggestions and predictions

[Alasdair Clift]

The Class 700 First Class seats are not Fainsa Sophias. They look similar but they are not the same.

Yes, I saw them being proposed for LNR First Class, which is an utter joke - simply continuing the situation that I would pay extra not to sit in First Class on a LNR service other than the Class 319s, which are the only units with an acceptable First Class on their network.

Yes, I see that now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I see that now.

Actually, on looking again at pictures, it looks like they actually are (sorry!) - but are a different version of the seat which doesn't seem to suffer from the "metal bar" / thin base cushion issue. Paid more for them, I guess.

They also have a higher back and a different shaped back support.

 

[hexagon789]

Nope, not at all!

Considering the items which don't sell well and they've got rid of, perhaps they could downsize rather than get rid of the shop as a compromise.

 

[43096]

everyone seems to love LNER's version, which is no different other than in the colour scheme and presence of a buffet counter.

Everyone? Well I posted back after I had my first Azuma how appalling the seats are.

If the Pendolinos are to get IET standard class seats, then it is just one hateful seat design being replaced by another hateful design.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Considering the items which don't sell well and they've got rid of, perhaps they could downsize rather than get rid of the shop as a compromise.

A more traditional counter-service buffet (like that fitted to the LNER 80x) could easily be less than half the size and still sell the same stuff.

 

[hexagon789]

A more traditional counter-service buffet (like that fitted to the LNER 80x) could easily be less than half the size and still sell the same stuff.

Having not been on a 390 for some years it may be different now, but I seem to recall you used to get to the shop counter past some shelves and cabinets, they could be removed and simply the counter left.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having not been on a 390 for some years it may be different now, but I seem to recall you used to get to the shop counter past some shelves and cabinets, they could be removed and simply the counter left.

You do, but the problem with doing that would be that there would be no refrigerated storage so there would be near enough no benefit over a static trolley. You'd have to make it wider to fit that in behind the steward in a more traditional layout.

 

[hexagon789]

You do, but the problem with doing that would be that there would be no refrigerated storage so there would be near enough no benefit over a static trolley. You'd have to make it wider to fit that in behind the steward in a more traditional layout.

I think that could be done though, essentially a redesign of the shop removing the cabinets but adding a fridge behind the counter, as well as moving it further back along the car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that could be done though, essentially a redesign of the shop removing the cabinets but adding a fridge behind the counter, as well as moving it further back along the car.

Yes, that was what I suggested - replace what is there with a much shorter (maybe 2m long would be enough) but deeper traditional buffet counter.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, that was what I suggested - replace what is there with a much shorter (maybe 2m long would be enough) but deeper traditional buffet counter.

I think we're on the same page, just I misread your post slightly. Yes, that's probably what First/Trenitalia would be best off doing.

 

[driver_m]

The issues you have with coach C are, the cubicles for the electrics which can’t be shifted, unless there’s going to be some radical strip out and rebuild of all the cupboards on the train. The TM cubbyhole which although now has less equipment, still has the emergency brake and the TMS for the reservations and such . CCTV and you will still have to include this somewhere on the train if you’re planning g on all getting the crayons out to redesign the train. The storage unit opposite the cubicles does also contain some electrical equipment too relating to the shop/coffee unit etc and also a water supply.

 

[hexagon789]

The issues you have with coach C are, the cubicles for the electrics which can’t be shifted, unless there’s going to be some radical strip out and rebuild of all the cupboards on the train. The TM cubbyhole which although now has less equipment, still has the emergency brake and the TMS for the reservations and such . CCTV and you will still have to include this somewhere on the train if you’re planning g on all getting the crayons out to redesign the train. The storage unit opposite the cubicles does also contain some electrical equipment too relating to the shop/coffee unit etc and also a water supply.

Does that mean the shop can't only not be easily re-configured but can't be easily removed full stop then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that mean the shop can't only not be easily re-configured but can't be easily removed full stop then?

Only on the basis of the naysayers of the forum. Many things said not to be possible turn out to happen. If you can build the unit, you can reconfigure it.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Only on the basis of the naysayers of the forum. Many things said not to be possible turn out to happen. If you can build the unit, you can reconfigure it.

You can do most things at a price!

I think it's going to be just over £2 million per set on re-furbishment, how far that goes in Railway money is another matter!!

We will find out within the.next 9 weeks, one would hope.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can do most things at a price!

Indeed. More seats on the WCML is likely to make that a price worth paying, though, particularly given the delays and possible cancellation of HS2 and the long remaining life of these units. They aren't a quick "bodgit and scarper for at most 10 years use" as was done to the SWR 442s, they've got at least another 20 years in them - this is a mid-life heavy refurb.

 

[hexagon789]

Only on the basis of the naysayers of the forum. Many things said not to be possible turn out to happen. If you can build the unit, you can reconfigure it.

Cost could be more than they are willing to pay. I'm reminded of how long the ex-HT 170/3s kept the buffet counters before they were finally removed.

 

[greatvoyager]

Would the removal of the shop be well received? It's fine on shorter trains of 5 car or less, but on longer trains such as 11 car Pendolinos, a trolley service takes much longer to get to all passengers.

 

[hexagon789]

Would the removal of the shop be well received? It's fine on shorter trains of 5 car or less, but on longer trains such as 11 car Pendolinos, a trolley service takes much longer to get to all passengers.

Hence why a reduction in its size might be the best of both worlds, perhaps combined with a pre-ordering service (which I would adopt of the shop was abolished).

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the shop will be replaced with some kind of in app order service, really this would be the logical thing to do.

I'm told it was planned to happen on GWR, but never did, so it's lukewarm tea and crisps if you're lucky.

 

[Goldfish62]

Would the removal of the shop be well received? It's fine on shorter trains of 5 car or less, but on longer trains such as 11 car Pendolinos, a trolley service takes much longer to get to all passengers.

Based on the experience on GWR a single trolley would often not make it through the whole train on journeys up to two hours.

 

[Energy]

Tbh I don't see much point in having 3 classes

When I was suggesting a more economy+ or premium economy I wasn't suggesting 3 classes, instead first class gets removed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I was suggesting a more economy+ or premium economy I wasn't suggesting 3 classes, instead first class gets removed.

Something, perhaps, like a 2+2 layout with leather seating, something like Grammer IC3000s or FISA LEAN, fully window aligned (so 1st spacing) with say half airline half tables and recline?

So basically what SWR have done to the 444s?

Not sure if I'd pay for that or not. It would depend on the markup. Certainly not 1.6x as the classic First Class markup. Maybe 1.2x? My main use case for 1st is a seat that is both window and aisle. However with good legroom and decent sized seatback tables (please not fixed tables in airline seats, they make access difficult) I could still be tempted.

 

[greatvoyager]

Based on the experience on GWR a single trolley would often not make it through the whole train on journeys up to two hours.

As it's First, they'll go with a layout that they're familiar with. Logic says the new bimodes/EMUs and the Pendolinos will need to adopt the same catering methods.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As it's First, they'll go with a layout that they're familiar with. Logic says the new bimodes/EMUs and the Pendolinos will need to adopt the same catering methods.

Which means I stop buying stuff because I can't buy stuff. My success rate on GWR 80x is woeful.

I genuinely don't mind trolleys, but you really need one per 3-4 coaches to get through at an acceptable frequency, so while it saves on about 2 bays of seats it doesn't save on staffing if you do it at an acceptable level.

 

[EE Andy b1]

When I was suggesting a more economy+ or premium economy I wasn't suggesting 3 classes, instead first class gets removed.

They make a hell of a lot of money from First class passengers, why would they want to get rid of it.
The time in First class can be used for productive work which is why businesses pay the high first class fares for there employees.

 

[RealTrains07]

I hope and pray that First see the Virgin Trains Pendolino first class carriages as the classy and popular spaces they are, and do not try to damage this and downgrade customers a la South Western Railway.

However, we are forgetting perhaps, the beautiful refurbishment of the TransPennine Express fleet and Great Western Railway HST First class. These were really good quality refurbishments and actually improved the trains further.

Now the TPE fleet is going and the HSTs are all but gone

 

[RealTrains07]

I think the shop will be replaced with some kind of in app order service, really this would be the logical thing to do.

Stupidest idea i have ever heard people will abuse it and expect more

 

[RealTrains07]

I'm sure the seats can provide sufficient cushioning without taking all the space the current ones do

Not if the government have anything to do with it

First makes things as cheap as possible anyway cause really they cant afford to run it

 

[hexagon789]

When I was suggesting a more economy+ or premium economy I wasn't suggesting 3 classes, instead first class gets removed.

2+2 in both but with better legroom (and perhaps seats) in the premium offering?

 

[hexagon789]

Stupidest idea i have ever heard people will abuse it and expect more

How will they abuse it? You pre-order from a selection, and have it delivered to your seat when on board. With current technology it could not only be set-up so it knows what's available but even so it knows when you've sat down and to bring your food along!