WCML Pendolino refurbishment suggestions and predictions

[hexagon789]

Oh because that’s going to be really comfortable isn’t it

Depends - if the DfT have a hand in it then probably not, no.

 

[Mikey C]

Not a massive fan of the Pendolino seats, the ones on the Chiltern 168s or the Meridian 222s are much nicer for example

An unscientific test, but I really struggle to sleep on Pendolinos. Been away for the weekend, enjoyed a beer or 3, and ready to doze and it rarely happens!

 

[WideRanger]

Is such a seat on the market?

Yes, there are lots of these in Japan, but not on premium trains. Not the most comfortable things in the world.

 

[WideRanger]

Reversible seating only works in Japan because everyone is used to the system; the rule is that you move your seat round when the train reverses (as they do quite a lot in Japan) and if anyone doesn’t play along (ie tourists!) it causes quite some upset. I can just imagine the confusion and arguments it would cause here! Also they don’t work as bays of 4, there’s not enough room (I’ve tried it); in order to have adequate legroom as a bay, the legroom when in airline mode would have to be colossal. It has to be generous to allow for the pivoting in any case. And you can’t have any tables.

To sum up: no chance!

On all of the ones I have seen in Japan (and I have seen a lot), it is possible to make a bay of 4, and are commonly used that way by families travelling together. Leg room isn't great, but people will decide whether they don't mind interlocking legs with their family members.

 

[Failed Unit]

To be honest I prefer travelling backwards. I have travelled on trains with reversible seats. If you can reverse them yourself- fine. But in Japan do they force everyone to face forwards.

 

[WideRanger]

To be honest I prefer travelling backwards. I have travelled on trains with reversible seats. If you can reverse them yourself- fine. But in Japan do they force everyone to face forwards.

They really don't force you to face forward. It's the default at the start of each journey for the seats to be made to face the direction of travel (because most people want to face forward, and it is only if all of the seats are facing in the same direction that people get to access the seat back tables and not have the social discomfort of facing someone else), but if you are occupying all of the seats, they really don't mind people flipping the seats around or over to form a bay of 4 (or in some cases, 6). There is an easily accessible foot lever at the corridor end of the set of seats for this purpose, even on the models where the seats turn automatically. There is even a clear protocol for who should sit in which seat when groups of business people travel together and forming a group. If you do it, you should bear in mind that you won't get a table (because they are on the seat backs on most trains).

For those who have felt disapproval for not switching the seats, it is more likely that people are frustrated that as a foreigner you don't understand what is 'normal' - but if you explain that you are purposefully forming a bay, it shouldn't be a problem. Of course, this only applies if you are occupying all of the seats in the bay - if not, you will be regarded as being selfish and antisocial (because you will be seen as taking up more seats than needed.

 

[BucksBones]

On all of the ones I have seen in Japan (and I have seen a lot), it is possible to make a bay of 4, and are commonly used that way by families travelling together. Leg room isn't great, but people will decide whether they don't mind interlocking legs with their family members.

There’s really not much room... I don’t think UK passengers would go for that.

 

[Energy]

I can't see reversible seats being a thing here, especially in an intercity train. They would be higher in maintenance and I thing people would rather just have more seats. I had an idea that maybe they should make a less good but cheaper first class and brand it more as a standard+. Chiltern offer cheaper rates on their business zone and I think the first / economy+ would get more full. If they offer warm food then it may not be included but I think more people would be willing to spend an extra £5 on some food with a much cheaper ticket

 

[VT 390]

I can't see reversible seats being a thing here, especially in an intercity train. They would be higher in maintenance and I thing people would rather just have more seats. I had an idea that maybe they should make a less good but cheaper first class and brand it more as a standard+. Chiltern offer cheaper rates on their business zone and I think the first / economy+ would get more full. If they offer warm food then it may not be included but I think more people would be willing to spend an extra £5 on some food with a much cheaper ticket

The Pendolinos operate on services much longer than those which Chiltern operate on though so I do not think they should make first class worse in terms of seating (but with new seat covers). But I agree that if the fares were reduced that it would be better to still offer hot food but pay and extra £5-£10 for it (as I think East Midlands Railway do on most services).
I actually like the layout on the Pendolinos other than there could be a few more single seats, but in at least one carriage they should keep the layout as it is as an issue with a lot of first classes now is if there are just 2 of you travelling together there are limited pairs of seats such as on LNER or GWR.
The Pendolinos do need a full refurbishment though but I would hope they do not replace the seats as they are some of the more comfortable ones now that a lot of routes have IET's with hard seats.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I can see the shop being downgraded, I fear it's unlikely to be upgraded with the present trend for doing the exact opposite; a purely trolley service in standard would be a bit of a downgrade though

It could prove a challenge to provide a frequent service through 7 standard class coaches, 5 can be a challenge on an HST when it's busy. However, they could solve the problem by having 2 trolleys per train, something that would also please the RMT.

I can see part of the shop being retained for Left On Board storage, as well as somewhere to refill pumppots, ala CrossCountry.

 

[Energy]

Personally I would like a shop but you can get stuff delivered to you if you order on your phone or hot food ordered at the shop.
I was wondering, some services have full meals, are meal times fixed or flexible depending on your journey. For example what if you were on a Virgin service from London to Glasgow but you were only on for the Birmingham to Manchester part, when would you get your meal?

 

[hexagon789]

It could prove a challenge to provide a frequent service through 7 standard class coaches, 5 can be a challenge on an HST when it's busy. However, they could solve the problem by having 2 trolleys per train, something that would also please the RMT.

I can see part of the shop being retained for Left On Board storage, as well as somewhere to refill pumppots, ala CrossCountry.

Perhaps a full pre-order at-seat meal service in both classes (chargeable in standard) with a trolley for each class.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Perhaps a full pre-order at-seat meal service in both classes (chargeable in standard) with a trolley for each class.

I can see them doing something like that. It would be a good way to prevent waste of perishables.
A lot of the gimmicky stuff (earphones, pens, jellybeans) would pobably have to go, as there is no way they could fit the full range they have at the minute on to a trolley.

 

[hexagon789]

I can see them doing something like that. It would be a good way to prevent waste of perishables.
A lot of the gimmicky stuff (earphones, pens, jellybeans) would pobably have to go, as there is no way they could fit the full range they have at the minute on to a trolley.

I don't think the pens and earphones were particularly big sellers at the prices they charged, most people have their own anyway.

Yes, I think it could prove better for them to do that.

 

[RealTrains07]

Removing the shop would be a mistake. Replacing the seats in standard is not needed. cause all we will get then are the 800 rubbish. Luggage racks are also needed considering where would big cases go then. Removing them wont help the cattle situation.

First trying to convert the pendolino to IET standard is a bad idea!!

 

[NewSt]

I don't think the pens and earphones were particularly big sellers at the prices they charged

And, in line with that observation, they no longer sell them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see reversible seats being a thing here, especially in an intercity train. They would be higher in maintenance and I thing people would rather just have more seats. I had an idea that maybe they should make a less good but cheaper first class and brand it more as a standard+. Chiltern offer cheaper rates on their business zone and I think the first / economy+ would get more full. If they offer warm food then it may not be included but I think more people would be willing to spend an extra £5 on some food with a much cheaper ticket

I do wonder if you're right and the old Virgin "purple zone" thing was ahead of its time. You could either have it as 2+2 with leather seats and First Class spacing (so a bit like the South East TOCs' "First Class"), or 2+1 with Standard spacing, for a more affordable upgrade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Removing the shop would be a mistake. Replacing the seats in standard is not needed. cause all we will get then are the 800 rubbish.

I am no great fan of the Fainsa Sophia, but it is nice that I fit every seat on an 80x and don't have to push and shove to get a table or priority seat. So I would say better to replace with a thinner-backed seat, albeit one with a thick enough base cushion.

I still bet it will be Fainsa Sophias, though.

 

[RealTrains07]

I am no great fan of the Fainsa Sophia, but it is nice that I fit every seat on an 80x and don't have to push and shove to get a table or priority seat. So I would say better to replace with a thinner-backed seat, albeit one with a thick enough base cushion.

I still bet it will be Fainsa Sophias, though.

People arn’t gonna like it

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I am no great fan of the Fainsa Sophia, but it is nice that I fit every seat on an 80x and don't have to push and shove to get a table or priority seat. So I would say better to replace with a thinner-backed seat, albeit one with a thick enough base cushion.

I still bet it will be Fainsa Sophias, though.

Why? They’ve largely only been used by Hitachi from what we’ve seen so far!

ScotRail Class 385 (First Class)
Great Western Railway Class 800
LNER Class 800
LNER Class 801
Great Western Railway Class 802
TransPennine Express Class 802
Hull Trains Class 802

and from what I know, nothing else! Those are all Hitachi units. I know Fainsa and Hitachi are separate companies, but you know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People arn’t gonna like it

It depends how it's publicised. GWR seems to have had little but hatred for their 80x, and yet everyone seems to love LNER's version, which is no different other than in the colour scheme and presence of a buffet counter. I've not heard a slating for TPE's use of the same seats in their CAF stock, either.

 

[EE Andy b1]

People arn’t gonna like it

Do TOCs really care?

Nope I don't think so.

They will fit what suits them at a price for the best returns in revenue for them. They are hard faced so will put up with the predictable complaints that follow for a while, which will eventually die down because something else will come along for passengers to complain about, like another January fare rise.

I fear the TOC will turn what is quite a reasonable Intercity train into a way below par one, and we will just have to make do or go back onto the roads. Very depressing.

Let's hope we get surprised but it would be a FIRST (Pun intended).!!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I hope and pray that First see the Virgin Trains Pendolino first class carriages as the classy and popular spaces they are, and do not try to damage this and downgrade customers a la South Western Railway.

However, we are forgetting perhaps, the beautiful refurbishment of the TransPennine Express fleet and Great Western Railway HST First class. These were really good quality refurbishments and actually improved the trains further.

 

[Mikey C]

Personally I find the Pendolino 1st class very nice and the standard class pretty mediocre! One operator where it well worth looking out for the cheap advance tickets!

 

[EE Andy b1]

However, we are forgetting perhaps, the beautiful refurbishment of the TransPennine Express fleet and Great Western Railway HST First class. These were really good quality refurbishments and actually improved the trains further.

Yes i must admit, especially on the GWR HST First class was a vast improvement after refurbishing, so you never know, but we want a descent upgrade for all and comfy seats with legroom for all in Standard and First class.

 

[hexagon789]

And, in line with that observation, they no longer sell them.

Not surprising.

 

[hexagon789]

I do wonder if you're right and the old Virgin "purple zone" thing was ahead of its time. You could either have it as 2+2 with leather seats and First Class spacing (so a bit like the South East TOCs' "First Class"), or 2+1 with Standard spacing, for a more affordable upgrade.

Just so long as some version of a "Virgin Value" class doesn't rear it's head

Tbh I don't see much point in having 3 classes, I just feel it eats up more capacity. If you convert from first class then you may as well just make them standard class to add to the capacity there and converting them from standard class is not really an option.

I hope and pray that First see the Virgin Trains Pendolino first class carriages as the classy and popular spaces they are, and do not try to damage this and downgrade customers a la South Western Railway.

However, we are forgetting perhaps, the beautiful refurbishment of the TransPennine Express fleet and Great Western Railway HST First class. These were really good quality refurbishments and actually improved the trains further.

If they make it 2+2 I'd be very surprised, it's quite popular on the Pendolino services as it is.

Yes i must admit, especially on the GWR HST First class was a vast improvement after refurbishing, so you never know, but we want a descent upgrade for all and comfy seats with legroom for all in Standard and First class.

Good luck with that, I think that's all but gone in the main and unlikely to return sadly

 

[Alasdair Clift]

Why? They’ve largely only been used by Hitachi from what we’ve seen so far!

ScotRail Class 385 (First Class)
Great Western Railway Class 800
LNER Class 800
LNER Class 801
Great Western Railway Class 802
TransPennine Express Class 802
Hull Trains Class 802

and from what I know, nothing else! Those are all Hitachi units. I know Fainsa and Hitachi are separate companies, but you know.

They’re also used on TransPennine’s Mk5A sets, and will be used on their 397s too, and at least according to artist impressions (which aren’t always accurate) the LNR 730s will also have them for first class

 

[NewSt]

Not surprising.

Nope, not at all!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They’re also used on TransPennine’s Mk5A sets, and will be used on their 397s too, both from CAF, as well as in first class on the Class 700s (Siemens) and, at least according to artist impressions (which aren’t always accurate) the LNR 730s will also have them for first class

The Class 700 First Class seats are not Fainsa Sophias. They look similar but they are not the same.

Yes, I saw them being proposed for LNR First Class, which is an utter joke - simply continuing the situation that I would pay extra not to sit in First Class on a LNR service other than the Class 319s, which are the only units with an acceptable First Class on their network.