Ideas to improve the Blackpool South Line

[VT 390]

Apologies for being off topic, but what is a tram-train? Are there any examples in the UK?

It's a tram that can also run on network rail tracks as well as on street running/normal tram lines. The only example in the UK is in Sheffield, the tram train is the route from Rotherham Parkgate to Cathedral.

 

[Karl]

Cheers chaps.

 

[Bald Rick]

All UK trams have the driver controlling the doors, even those that carry conductors, whose purpose is generally revenue and passenger assistance.

Oh I know - I meant DOO on the current service.

 

[MarkyT]

Something I forgot about is platform height. Blackpool has a low floor tram network so through running to Preston would need potentially difficult low platform sections for tram use at each station called at on the main line segment, like Rotherham Central on the Sheffield system. Cardiff's Citylink tram-trains from the same manufacturer are to be delivered with floor height matched for level boarding at UK standard 913mm platforms however, but while these could run easily on the mainline segment with no infrastructure changes, they could not call at any existing stops on the Blackpool tram system. This all favours keeping the Blackpool South line separate really which suggests an extension to a new small terminal at Central along the old railway alignment. Under light rail regulations, this section would not have to be fully segregated from road traffic and pedestrians, so construction could be much easier than a heavy rail extension on the same corridor. All platforms would be 913mm, so my enhanced service as far as Lytham would also have to be run with the tram train rolling stock. Bypassing the southern section of the existing street tramway with fewer stops should result in an attractive journey time between Central Blackpool and destinations in Lytham St Annes, and an economical single track configuration with passing loops should suffice for a 15 minute interval service as far as Lytham, with half hourly beyond to Preston. The on board battery of the Cardiff type vehicles could also allow a similar discontinuous electrification paradigm to be used for the branch with Preston services drawing traction power and charging on the main line 25kV as far Kirkham then going battery from there. My short workings between Blackpool and Lytham wouldn't have any electrified route to charge on though without some further fill-in on the branch itself. With a light rail service unconnected physically to the existing tram network, some local 25kV wiring could be provided on isolated parts of the reconfigured and extended branch that are not on street, with battery running always on street and elsewhere. Some static charging points at the Blackpool Central and Lytham terminals could also or alternatively be provided where a suitable layover allowed top up charging.

 

[Bald Rick]

Something I forgot about is platform height. Blackpool has a low floor tram network so through running to Preston would need potentially difficult low platform sections for tram use at each station called at on the main line segment, like Rotherham Central on the Sheffield system. Cardiff's Citylink tram-trains from the same manufacturer are to be delivered with floor height matched for level boarding at UK standard 913mm platforms however, but while these could run easily on the mainline segment with no infrastructure changes, they could not call at any existing stops on the Blackpool tram system. This all favours keeping the Blackpool South line separate really which suggests an extension to a new small terminal at Central along the old railway alignment. Under light rail regulations, this section would not have to be fully segregated from road traffic and pedestrians, so construction could be much easier than a heavy rail extension on the same corridor. All platforms would be 913mm, so my enhanced service as far as Lytham would also have to be run with the tram train rolling stock. Bypassing the southern section of the existing street tramway with fewer stops should result in an attractive journey time between Central Blackpool and destinations in Lytham St Annes, and an economical single track configuration with passing loops should suffice for a 15 minute interval service as far as Lytham, with half hourly beyond to Preston. The on board battery of the Cardiff type vehicles could also allow a similar discontinuous electrification paradigm to be used for the branch with Preston services drawing traction power and charging on the main line 25kV as far Kirkham then going battery from there. My short workings between Blackpool and Lytham wouldn't have any electrified route to charge on though without some further fill-in on the branch itself. With a light rail service unconnected physically to the existing tram network, some local 25kV wiring could be provided on isolated parts of the reconfigured and extended branch that are not on street, with battery running always on street and elsewhere. Some static charging points at the Blackpool Central and Lytham terminals could also or alternatively be provided where a suitable layover allowed top up charging.

For the number of platforms concerned, dropping them to low floor height really wouldn’t be an issue. Couple of million tops.

 

[Speed43125]

Apologies for being off topic, but what is a tram-train? Are there any examples in the UK?

I thought I'd add it's the Class 399 you'd be looking for

 

[LOL The Irony]

What's with this obsession of turning every little bit of slightly underutilised rail into a tram/tram-train line? Just because it worked with Altrincham & Bury, doesn't mean it'll work elsewheres. Just leave the Blackpool South line as is and send the tram via Clifton Drive to Fairhaven.

 

[Bald Rick]

What's with this obsession of turning every little bit of slightly underutilised rail into a tram/tram-train line? Just because it worked with Altrincham & Bury, doesn't mean it'll work elsewheres. Just leave the Blackpool South line as is and send the tram via Clifton Drive to Fairhaven.

Accepting th first point, but why would you do the second? There would be two rail based transit systems running parallel about 200metres apart.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Accepting th first point, but why would you do the second? There would be two rail based transit systems running parallel about 200metres apart.

In that case, why didn't Metrolink put their buffers at Timperley?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's with this obsession of turning every little bit of slightly underutilised rail into a tram/tram-train line?

Because it allows a significant upgrade to the service for a relatively low cost. I think we need to see a lot more of light rail operating concepts on small branch lines.

 

[Meerkat]

Because it allows a significant upgrade to the service for a relatively low cost. I think we need to see a lot more of light rail operating concepts on small branch lines.

Does it for a line like Blackpool South? What upgrade would it allow that doesn’t slow the service down?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does it for a line like Blackpool South? What upgrade would it allow that doesn’t slow the service down?

Higher frequency for one, because adding a tram passing loop would be cheaper, and the staff are cheaper.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Higher frequency for one, because adding a tram passing loop would be cheaper, and the staff are cheaper.

What about the people from South Shore who want to get to Preston?

 

[Meerkat]

Higher frequency for one, because adding a tram passing loop would be cheaper, and the staff are cheaper.

At what point will the RMT see this as backdoor DOO and start strikes, or can you swap operator so any strike against Northern might be illegal?

 

[LOL The Irony]

At what point will the RMT see this as backdoor DOO and start strikes, or can you swap operator so any strike against Northern might be illegal?

Striking against Northern in this instance will be illegal.

 

[CdBrux]

Don't believe this was mentioned already, Fylde local authorities looking to bid for money to significantly expand local light rail including taking over the Blackpool south branch for trams.
It also seems to fit to the seemingly rather odd specific mention of re-opening the rail line to Fleetwood in the Tory manifesto.

https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/...ylde-coast-tram-loop-a-reality-1-10175953/amp

The Fylde coast's three local authorities are being urged to support ambitious plans for a tram loop by joining forces to create a £2m development fund.

It is proposed Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre councils each include a bid for cash towards the scheme as part of their submissions to the government for a share of the Future High Street Fund.

The proposed tram loop
It is estimated a comprehensive business case study would cost around £2m, which would be split equally between the councils.

This would be used to recommend how the scheme could be implemented if funding became available in the future.

The loop proposes to use the mothballed rail track between Fleetwood and Poulton for trams, while the Kirkham to Blackpool South line would be converted from trains to trams.

The line would then connect to the existing Blackpool to Fleetwood tramway.

The tramway is already being extended up Talbot Road
It already has the support of Blackpool North and Cleveleys MP Paul Maynard, while Prime Minister Boris Johnson has pledged to re-open the Poulton to Fleetwood line as part of a £500m national campaign to restore closed down track.

A report to the next meeting of the Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre Economic Prosperity Board on Tuesday January 7 says the aim is to create "a more cohesive Fylde Coast public transport system".

Blackpool Council, in conjunction with Lancashire County Council as transport authority for Fylde and Wyre, would undertake the feasibility study.

The report adds: "It is important that this opportunity is pursued to prepare the way to develop the tramway network further to enhance the sub-region in terms of accessibility, regeneration and environmental sustainability and support important economic sectors such as tourism.

"A more efficient and effective, modern and reliable, public transport system could be created by operating continuous tram lines between Kirkham and Wesham and Poulton-le-Fylde via Lytham, St Annes, Blackpool, Cleveleys, Fleetwood and Thornton.

"A tramway loop would also serve Blackpool Airport Enterprise Zone, Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Hillhouse International Enterprise Zone."

For the scheme to go ahead, it would also need the backing of rail operators and Network Rail.

The committee is being recommended to accept the proposals and approach the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government and Lancashire County Council to ensure they are on board.

Bodies including Blackpool Transport, Network Rail, Community Rail Lancashire, Transport for the North, the DfT and the Poulton and
Wyre Railway Society would also be consulted.

The tramway is already being extended up Talbot Road to connect with Blackpool North train station.

 

[Chester1]

Did the Tory manifesto actually promise to reopen the Fleetwood line or is it just one of the many possibilities from a limited pool of money (£500m)?

The previous studies for the Fylde line have indicated tram trains or splitting the line (with or without some overlap using parallel single tracks e.g. Lytham to St Annes On Sea). A complete tram conversion of the line won't happen because it would sever too many places link to Preston and would mean spending a fortune on converting a long rural stretch of line.

 

[Lytham Local]

The local MP's are getting involved (again) to get something moving on getting a passing loop on the line .... (I used OCR to convert the image to text so the text is a bit wonky here and there).

MARK MENZIES MP
HOUSE OF COMMONS
LONDON SWIA OAA
The Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP Secretary of State for Transport Department for Transport 33 Horseferry Road
29 January 2020

Dear Grant.

RE: Restoring Railways project and the South Fylde rail line

We are writing in relation to the Restoring Railways project and the South Fylde railwaY wfilch classified as a long siding, from Preston to Blackpool South.

We understand the aim of the funding is to get closed rail lines reopened; here we have a rail line which lost its second track, and the ability to run a, semblance of a decent timetable. The South Fylde railway line can only support one service per hour at present, usually consisting of two carriages.

This line serves the towns of Kirkham, Lytham and St Annes in Fylde, and also two of the biggest tourism attractions in the UK in Blackpool South — Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Blackpool Sandcastle Waterpark. The Pleasure Beach alone can attract in excess of five million visitors per year, and the Sandcastle — Europe's largest indoor waterpark — more than 300,000.

The South Fylde line used to run into the since-demolished Blackpool Central Station, and lost its second track in the early 1980s, forcing a reduction and decline in services. The line is so limited, the owners of the Pleasure Beach do not use it for performers and business partners, opting instead to dnve to Preston to collect them; with better services we could see the Pleasure Beach actively promoting it to its five million visitors.

We have met with Transport For The North and they tell us they have a minimum requirement for two services per hour on all rail lines; we need to secure funding for a passing loop to allow more than one service at a time to be on the South Fylde line.

Would we be able to submit an application for funding to the Restoring Railways initiative to help us achieve this goal? We would like to meet to see how we could take the matter forward with Restonng Railways— or any other funding packages which may be available.

Yours sincerely,
Mark Menzies
Scott Benton MP
MP for Fylde MP for Blackpool South