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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Scotrail84

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None of the sets will 2 plus 5. All will be 2 plus 4.

Theres seemingly been a balls up with the fuel calculations as well. Major underestimate apparently.

Haymarket is an absolute mess with knackered hst sets. Hampers shunting at the depot
 
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Scotrail84

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Goldromans said:
None, because none have been delivered. I believed everyone was aware that the 9 4-coach sets were always going to be delivered first.
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AFAIK the 2 x 5 idea has been put on hold due to ongoing issues. The fuel miscalculation having a major impact on this, not to mention major faults being discovered with the power cars and coaches. Could be as little as eight 2 x 4 hst sets in service from the Dec timetable.
 
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hooky3

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surely if none of the HSTs are 5 coaches eventually, this breaks the franchise requirements? same could also be said for the lack of 158s on the WHL as promised, but that’s off topic...
 
BRX

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What's the story with the fuel miscalculation and does it apply to the GWR short sets too?
 
43096

43096

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47271 said:
I'm on the 1742 Edinburgh-Inverness, a classic HST, and I'm amused by how one coach was plunged into complete darkness for a minute or so by a passenger waiting to get off at Dunkeld innocently leaning on a button in the vestibule. Please tell me that the refurbs make that control inaccessible to the public?

The man seemed to realise what he'd done and everything came on again without staff intervention.
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From what I know of the position of the control panel you do not innocently lean on the button - it is fairly high up.
 
47271

47271

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BRX said:
What's the story with the fuel miscalculation and does it apply to the GWR short sets too?
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This story has been posted before in another thread, but by an 'insider' who also predicted that Abellio would be off the franchise on 1 October. Make of that what you will. Mind you, given that they've messed up just about every other aspect of the project, it wouldn't surprise if they'd forgotten that each HST has an engine at either end and didn't calculate fuel x2, or something like that!
43096 said:
From what I know of the position of the control panel you do not innocently lean on the button - it is fairly high up.
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I saw him do it and saw his reaction. He was a tall man and it was totally an accident. Can't the panel be disabled, I must have a look at one when I'm next on?
 
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Northhighland

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What are the major power car issues? Are these on the classic power car sets or the refurbed ones as well? What is the remedy or is there no remedy for some?
 
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scotraildriver

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There will be 8 refurbished diagrams from a pool of 12 from the December timetable. The first 5 car will be delivered in January and production is to increase to 2 sets per month from then. 24 sets delivered for the May change - this is from the engineering director and projrct manager and was stated to the Scottish Parliament. Negotiations witt Angel to increase all to 5 cars. Every "rumour" so far has proved to be wrong, at the moment the project is continuing in its original form, albeit late. Also the 5 170s due to leave the fleet are staying now.
 
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DannyMich2018

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scotraildriver said:
There will be 8 refurbished diagrams from a pool of 12 from the December timetable. The first 5 car will be delivered in January and production is to increase to 2 sets per month from then. 24 sets delivered for the May change - this is from the engineering director and projrct manager and was stated to the Scottish Parliament. Negotiations witt Angel to increase all to 5 cars. Every "rumour" so far has proved to be wrong, at the moment the project is continuing in its original form, albeit late. Also the 5 170s due to leave the fleet are staying now.
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Okay bit confusing because if the first 5-car is not going to be delivered until January and number 8 "should" be delivered anytime now this leaves just the the last 4 car to be delivered before then either in Oct/Nov/Dec. So much for monthly deliveries.... Even if we get two sets per month from January added to what's already been delivered no way will be 24 be available for the May timetable change...
 
Killingworth

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DannyMich2018 said:
Okay bit confusing because if the first 5-car is not going to be delivered until January and number 8 "should" be delivered anytime now this leaves just the the last 4 car to be delivered before then either in Oct/Nov/Dec. So much for monthly deliveries.... Even if we get two sets per month from January added to what's already been delivered no way will be 24 be available for the May timetable change...
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In Wabtec's favour is that there should be only 2 of XCs 5 trains to go - one expected before the end of 2019 and the other soon after? They were all due before the end of the year so not so very far behind schedule. They involve 8 coaches per unit so once they're out of the way Scotrail deliveries should speed up.

We hear a lot, very rightly, about slow delivery of Scotrail stock but have the other contracts for HSTs been causing such major impact and concerns?
 
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John R

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Killingworth said:
In Wabtec's favour is that there should be only 2 of XCs 5 trains to go - one expected before the end of 2019 and the other soon after? They were all due before the end of the year so not so very far behind schedule. They involve 8 coaches per unit so once they're out of the way Scotrail deliveries should speed up.

We hear a lot, very rightly, about slow delivery of Scotrail stock but have the other contracts for HSTs been causing such major impact and concerns?
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The other operators already run non-refurbished stock, so it's more a case of retaining the status quo, rather than in Scotland, where the expectation was always for newly refurbished stock. IN GWR land, the replacement of dmu's by HST's is generally perceived as a very positive move, even if many are currently unrefurbished.
 
Speed43125

Speed43125

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Brissle Girl said:
The other operators already run non-refurbished stock, so it's more a case of retaining the status quo, rather than in Scotland, where the expectation was always for newly refurbished stock. IN GWR land, the replacement of dmu's by HST's is generally perceived as a very positive move, even if many are currently unrefurbished.
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Indeed, in GWR land, slam door is something they've had for decades, In Scotland they've not really existed in bulk (exception of EC and CS services) since the 158s were introduced around 1990, and they've been overhyping the improvements they're making for years now, causing an altogether disappointing service. Trackside staff complaining of being splashed by the toilets doesn't help either.
That all said, what refurbs that do run do seem to resonate well with passengers I've met.
 
Killingworth

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Brissle Girl said:
The other operators already run non-refurbished stock, so it's more a case of retaining the status quo, rather than in Scotland, where the expectation was always for newly refurbished stock. IN GWR land, the replacement of dmu's by HST's is generally perceived as a very positive move, even if many are currently unrefurbished.
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That is clearly a major part of the explanation, but it still appears that XC and GWR are getting more of their HST units back into service before the required 31.12.2019 deadline than Scotrail. Scotrail's order on top of the others seems to have proved too much for Wabtec. XC and GWR appear to have preference, presumably because they got their orders in first.
 
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bigmoose

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Haymarket still strewn with bits of HSTs when I passed yesterday. Power cars and carriages in various combinations or solo, but no complete trains and hence nothing that looked ready to run.

Complete shambles. And even if Scotrail manage to get any HSTs running, the bike storage situation is inexcusable in this day and age. Transport Scotland (aka Cars Scotland) deserve a good kicking in the media and in the Scottish Parliament for this.

On the bright side, the 385s are working a treat and Queen Street station looks very promising!
 
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JohnRegular

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Perhaps, if it is time for Scotrail to give up on the HST refurbs, they should be transferred to GWR in exchange for some 158s? It would make sense on paper for experienced GWR staff to work and maintain the HSTs, and Scotrail to gain more stock of the same type as they already have.

Of course, I know the reasons why not: 158s don't provided the promised upgrades, Scotrail wanting to save face, presumably different RoSCos, numbers of carriages don't match well, and so on and so on.
 
Clansman

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JohnRegular said:
Perhaps, if it is time for Scotrail to give up on the HST refurbs, they should be transferred to GWR in exchange for some 158s? It would make sense on paper for experienced GWR staff to work and maintain the HSTs, and Scotrail to gain more stock of the same type as they already have.

Of course, I know the reasons why not: 158s don't provided the promised upgrades, Scotrail wanting to save face, presumably different RoSCos, numbers of carriages don't match well, and so on and so on.
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If mechanical experience was the only basis for any change, then on paper the most logical step would be to handing maintenance duties over to Craigentinny as opposed to what you suggest.
 
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haggishunter

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If a significant number of extra 158s came to ScotRail so a good number of 6 car services could run, the extra capacity in terms of seats, luggage and bikes would negate much of the downsides of continued DMU operation.

The Inverness based 158s are imo much preferable to 170s with the wide doors opening direct into the middle of the passenger saloon and while you still have the underfloor engine nose you don’t get the awful vibrations the 170s have working hard on the HML. A 6 car 158 has advantage of 6 vs 4 toilets and through gangway for a trolley vs 2x170.

What that really would fall down on is journey time improvements that were promised along with buffet and first class offering. (The later two could be addressed in the 158s but not the first).
 
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Northhighland

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haggishunter said:
If a significant number of extra 158s came to ScotRail so a good number of 6 car services could run, the extra capacity in terms of seats, luggage and bikes would negate much of the downsides of continued DMU operation.

The Inverness based 158s are imo much preferable to 170s with the wide doors opening direct into the middle of the passenger saloon and while you still have the underfloor engine nose you don’t get the awful vibrations the 170s have working hard on the HML. A 6 car 158 has advantage of 6 vs 4 toilets and through gangway for a trolley vs 2x170.

What that really would fall down on is journey time improvements that were promised along with buffet and first class offering. (The later two could be addressed in the 158s but not the first).
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These issues have been aired many times. The door opening in the middle of the carriage is one of the main problems on a winter night. The carriage temperature just drops at every station and it is very unpleasant. These 158/170’s are not meant for these journeys and that is why they are being replaced.
 
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