Ideas to improve the Blackpool South Line

[Jorge Da Silva]

I have always felt the Blackpool South Line has been neglected for years and could do with improving. I had a few ideas:

• add a new passing loop at St Annes-on-sea
• Increase the service to half-hourly

But is there anything else that could make it more useful?

 

[markymark2000]

I have always felt the Blackpool South Line has been neglected for years and could do with improving. I had a few ideas:

• add a new passing loop at St Annes-on-sea
• Increase the service to half-hourly

But is there anything else that could make it more useful?

Personally I would cut it back to Lytham area and extend the tram from Lytham to Starr Gate to connect into the normal tram network. I don't think it needs the service into Blackpool South as the surrounding area is just empty really. It's a bit useless and people have to then connect into Blackpool town centre or whatever. I think trams might be the best thing for improving it.

Trains will only do so much for the area but you can tell by the frequency of the buses that the demand for travel is actually for smaller trips or trips into Blackpool Town Centre itself. The pleasure beach stop is a bit misleading now as well with it being a 10-15 minute walk away.

 

[Bald Rick]

This comes up on the forum roughly every year. Argument ensues between:

Passing loop at Lytham on existing service, or,

Conversion to tram to one of Lytham, Kirkham, or with tram trains, Preston.


Most of the traffic on the branch is from Preston to Lytham and beyond. For example very few people board the train at St Annes for Blackpool. Breaking that direct link from Preston wouldn’t be popular.

The buses on the Blackpool - St Annes corridor are indeed busy, but you won’t find many people on them paying for the trip.

 

[Aictos]

This comes up on the forum roughly every year. Argument ensues between:

Passing loop at Lytham on existing service, or,

Conversion to tram to one of Lytham, Kirkham, or with tram trains, Preston.


Most of the traffic on the branch is from Preston to Lytham and beyond. For example very few people board the train at St Annes for Blackpool. Breaking that direct link from Preston wouldn’t be popular.

The buses on the Blackpool - St Annes corridor are indeed busy, but you won’t find many people on them paying for the trip.

How much work and cost would it be to install a passing loop at Lytham?

Is there a business case for half hourly trains in the peak?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

This comes up on the forum roughly every year. Argument ensues between:

Passing loop at Lytham on existing service, or,

Conversion to tram to one of Lytham, Kirkham, or with tram trains, Preston.


Most of the traffic on the branch is from Preston to Lytham and beyond. For example very few people board the train at St Annes for Blackpool. Breaking that direct link from Preston wouldn’t be popular.

The buses on the Blackpool - St Annes corridor are indeed busy, but you won’t find many people on them paying for the trip.

Right so it is best to keep it as a rail line not convert to a tram? and would a more frequent service may encourage more to use the line?

 

[Bald Rick]

Right so it is best to keep it as a rail line not convert to a tram? and would a more frequent service may encourage more to use the line?

If it’s converting to a tram, then it needs to be tram train to Preston.

A more frequent service would undoubtedly improve use. But it would have to be a huge leap in usage to justify the expense. Lytham / St Annes is quite an affluent place, everyone has cars and the traffic isn’t bad. It is also full of people from older generations, and if they don’t have a car or can’t use one, then the bus is free. From my experience the train is used more for people visiting Lytham / St Annes / South shore than residents heading out.

 

[lachlan]

I have used the BPB stop twice now to return to Preston from the Pleasure Beach. I believe it would have been more useful when the Pleasure Beach was free to enter, as now it's on the wrong side for accesing the main entrance.

With the tram extension to the station it may become more convenient to just take the tram to Blackpool North and get the train there. From memory there's a tram stop close to the park entrance.

 

[Bald Rick]

How much work and cost would it be to install a passing loop at Lytham?

Is there a business case for half hourly trains in the peak?

That depends what you call the peak. In my experience the trains are busiest Friday afternoon / evenings and weekend mornings to Blackpool South, and back east weekend evenings.

A loop at Lytham would be in the £10m range. A lot of signalling work. If it was built it would have to be for an all day half hourly service.

Business Case? Who knows. I doubt it, or it would have happened, or at least been seriously considered.

 

[Aictos]

I have used the BPB stop twice now to return to Preston from the Pleasure Beach. I believe it would have been more useful when the Pleasure Beach was free to enter, as now it's on the wrong side for accesing the main entrance.

With the tram extension to the station it may become more convenient to just take the tram to Blackpool North and get the train there. From memory there's a tram stop close to the park entrance.

Yup, the tram stop is called Pleasure Beach strangely enough

 

[PR1Berske]

A lot of thought has to be put into the buses around South Fylde. The 61 and 68 are rarely "paid for" because of the average age of the passengers is closer to pensionable than not. The railway has a distinctly different passenger base.

I certainly would like to see the trams extended. Lytham would be a natural "cut off". That said, I know that the geography around Starr Gate and Squires Gate would make building work very tough on road traffic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it’s converting to a tram, then it needs to be tram train to Preston.

Does it? Would a frequent tram connecting to a frequent train at Kirkham (logically everything should stop there in this case) not be better than an infrequent through service?

 

[VT 390]

If it did convert to tram operation it would have to have through tickets with the rest of the country otherwise it would make longer distance travel from places along the line more complicated.

 

[VT 390]

Does it? Would a frequent tram connecting to a frequent train at Kirkham (logically everything should stop there in this case) not be better than an infrequent through service?

Would it not have to be a very frequent service to make up for the additional change at Kirkham though?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

A lot of thought has to be put into the buses around South Fylde.

You're semi-local so please put me out of my misery. How does one pronounce "Fylde?" Thanks in advance.

 

[PR1Berske]

You're semi-local so please put me out of my misery. How does one pronounce "Fylde?" Thanks in advance.

Pretty much as "filed", "I filed the pages away'

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it not have to be a very frequent service to make up for the additional change at Kirkham though?

The tram is at least 4tph, isn't it?

 

[Clip]

Does it? Would a frequent tram connecting to a frequent train at Kirkham (logically everything should stop there in this case) not be better than an infrequent through service?

There would have to be some more work done at Kirkham as the line from BPS doesnt go back into the same platform if you see what i mean which wouldnt be a very good spend of money if they had to close it again to put in the point work.

Its a shame Andsell & fairhaven doesnt still have its other platform as I would say that would be the best place for a loop in my opinion than Lytham - would also help with more golf trains too when needed

 

[VT 390]

The tram is at least 4tph, isn't it?

Yes the Blackpool Trams usually run every 10 minutes for most of the day I think but I was thinking more about the connections at Kirkham as even if all services stopped there as they are not at even intervals it would mean there may be some long waits at certain times, however as the current Blackpool South service could divert to Blackpool North along with some re timing of other services it could work.

 

[158756]

The tram is at least 4tph, isn't it?

In Blackpool, yes. Could the tram make money running between Kirkham and Lytham at that frequency though?

 

[Bald Rick]

Does it? Would a frequent tram connecting to a frequent train at Kirkham (logically everything should stop there in this case) not be better than an infrequent through service?

Yes, because as I said upthread, by far the majority of journeys are from Preston to Lytham and points west. Which means that that majority are going to be forced to change, where today they don’t. A decent proportion of these passengers have luggage, or kids, or both. Changing at Preston is one thing, changing at Preston and Kirkham quite another.

For eastbound journeys, being dumped at Kirkham (even were it to be significantly upgraded with waiting facilities etc) to then run the risk of not being able to board busy trains ex Blackpool North is quite a disincentive to travel. (It’s happened to me twice at Kirkham in the last two years).

If there is to be an enforced change, then Lytham is the place to do it, as you could run half hourly to there from both directions with minimal infrastructure change, save for the wires and the link somewhere near Starr Gate.

 

[Bald Rick]

Its a shame Andsell & fairhaven doesnt still have its other platform as I would say that would be the best place for a loop in my opinion than Lytham - would also help with more golf trains too when needed

The best place for a loop is halfway in running time between Kirkham and Blackpool South. And that is Lytham. Lytham also has the benefit of there being some signalling there (including power etc), so it would be cheaper to do too.

Edit: my apologies, I need to correct myself. I forgot that since the remodelling there’s a bit more double track down the branch for a signal section. This does indeed shift the midway running time point to Andsell. Nevertheless I still think Lytham would be better!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Pretty much as "filed", "I filed the pages away'

Many thanks. That's been troubling me for a long time!

 

[Clip]

The best place for a loop is halfway in running time between Kirkham and Blackpool South. And that is Lytham. Lytham also has the benefit of there being some signalling there (including power etc), so it would be cheaper to do too.

Edit: my apologies, I need to correct myself. I forgot that since the remodelling there’s a bit more double track down the branch for a signal section. This does indeed shift the midway running time point to Andsell. Nevertheless I still think Lytham would be better!

Oh yeah i could see your thinking on Lytham but im sure theres some signalling cabinets where the track used to be but i may be wrong - but with Andsell they could run the Golf shuttles whilst also keeping a service to South at once an hour therefore keeping those of us who need to get to the airport happy too (very selfish i know)

 

[VT 390]

If Andsell is the half way point of the line (journey time) then the loop should be there otherwise it could cause timetabling the line to be harder if not and it would allow an even interval service.

 

[MarkyT]

It's 15 mins running time from Lytham to Blackpool South and 14 coming back. So a bit tight to accomplish in a 30 mins! Of course if they were tram-trains, they might regain some double track on street at some point before reaching Blackpool South, so a Lytham loop might work after all. One more loop at St Annes might then allow a 15 minute interval service on a still predominantly single track line as far as Lytham, with every other one going on to Preston. The alternate ones only going as far as Lytham could be conventional trams, with only the Preston ones being tram-train spec. This part of the route between Blackpool and Lytham would thus be reclassified as light rail, which could allow some 'desegregation' in selected places, such as allowing new pedestrian level crossings in the vicinity of stations to improve connectiveness to surrounding development and make affordable PRM access to second platforms at new passing places. Perhaps one of the platforms at Lytham could be allowed to accept a non light rail vehicle (i.e. a conventional train) from Kirkham to terminate hence providing service backup thus far from Preston if a tram-train was unavailable for any reason (with interchange at Lytham for beyond).

 

[Bald Rick]

It's 15 mins running time from Lytham to Blackpool South and 14 coming back. So a bit tight to accomplish in a 30 mins

It’s fair to say that any electric tram or train on that section will be doing the journey a lot quicker.

Dare I say that even introducing DOO would knock a couple of minutes off. (This is not a DOO thread).

 

[Karl]

Apologies for being off topic, but what is a tram-train? Are there any examples in the UK?

 

[Karl]

Apologies for being off topic, but what is a tram-train? Are there any examples in the UK?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s fair to say that any electric tram or train on that section will be doing the journey a lot quicker.

Dare I say that even introducing DOO would knock a couple of minutes off. (This is not a DOO thread).

All UK trams have the driver controlling the doors, even those that carry conductors, whose purpose is generally revenue and passenger assistance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apologies for being off topic, but what is a tram-train? Are there any examples in the UK?

They are basically "heavyweight" trams that comply with rail crashworthiness regulations so can run alongside regular trains on the same tracks. The only UK example is Rotherham.