Island Line Railway - current state and the future

[ElectroSoldier]

Getting back towards the topic, there's been mention of improving usage of the rail service by better integration with the buses. Has anyone got any ideas on how this would work in practice on the island?

Maybe Ventnor could be provided with synchronised bus-rail connections and through ticketing at Shanklin, for example. Which would be cheaper and more convenient than the challenging prospect of restoring the rail connection.

At Shanklin the bus stop is right outside the station building, there is also more stops that go in all directions just a 5 minute walk away.
Lake carries the same routes and Shanklin and Sandown, Sandown carries a few more destinations than Shanklin but they are pretty well intergrated anyway.
Ryde has the greatest number of interlinking services as the station and bus stop are basically the same building.
Its not that hard to get a train from Lake to Ryde then a bus into Newport, or just take the bus from Lake directly into Newport.

The thing with the island is
All roads lead to Newport.
There is only 1 place to go after 23:00 hours
All the traffic lights will catch you on the way round Coppins
And the bus will take a long time

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Myself I would like to see the reinstatment of the line from Ryde to Cowes. Not as a heritage line, but as an Island line route, including a stop at the East Cowes round about to allow a bus to East Cowes a stop at the end of the dual to catch Newport and an intermediate stop around the factory (half way between St Cross and the factory on the old cement works) to allow casual walkers and workers to use it, ending in a stop at Cowes.

 

[67018]

That's a good idea in terms of serving the busiest traffic flows and easing traffic congestion. And I seem to recall that most of the route to Cowes is unobstructed. Just a shame that Newport seems to be an intractable barrier unless someone spends £££ to rebuild big chunks of it.

They are supposed to be rebuilding Newport's Roundabout of Doom soon - can't they sneak a rail line into the design?

 

[Meerkat]

Considering how much the current line loses every year any ideas of new IoW railway lines are somewhat fanciful, to be polite.
Much better value in investing in bus priority schemes

 

[The Ham]

No its not.
Considering the convenience of a car, always being where you need it when you need it, not having to wait I would consider a car being a whole hell of a lot cheaper than a bus.
The actual cost in cash... there isnt much between the one and the other.
I worked it out a number of years ago when I was making daily trips from Ryde to Newport and back and figured I was better off with a car.

Only when you have a cheap car, of we do it again where you're paying:

£600 insurance
£150/month lease costs or repayments
£120 breakdown cover
£140 VED
£10/week in parking
£160 servicing
£100 on tyres

That's £3,420 a year before you've driven anywhere, that's quite a bit more than the £2,250 it would cost for two bus passes for 450 days (which I used as 360 days isn't quite enough to cover a whole year, which is what 4*90 day passes would get you).

Those costs, although higher, aren't anywhere near as expensive as you could go on a car. Even £200/month on lease costs isn't really all that much.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

That's a good idea in terms of serving the busiest traffic flows and easing traffic congestion. And I seem to recall that most of the route to Cowes is unobstructed. Just a shame that Newport seems to be an intractable barrier unless someone spends £££ to rebuild big chunks of it.

They are supposed to be rebuilding Newport's Roundabout of Doom soon - can't they sneak a rail line into the design?

St Marys roundabout is a problem but the solution is as much about getting the go ahead for a new underhanded development on the Camp hill site as it is about easing traffic, which would be better served with a fly over at either end of the dual.

Considering how much the current line loses every year any ideas of new IoW railway lines are somewhat fanciful, to be polite.
Much better value in investing in bus priority schemes

Thats true, its little surprise the line loses money considering a large portion of fares are not collected.
Last time I went on the train from the pier head to St Johns I wasnt asked for a ticket, the last two times a return trip from Ryde to Sandown I wasnt challenged at all.

Only when you have a cheap car, of we do it again where you're paying:

£600 insurance
£150/month lease costs or repayments
£120 breakdown cover
£140 VED
£10/week in parking
£160 servicing
£100 on tyres

That's £3,420 a year before you've driven anywhere, that's quite a bit more than the £2,250 it would cost for two bus passes for 450 days (which I used as 360 days isn't quite enough to cover a whole year, which is what 4*90 day passes would get you).

Those costs, although higher, aren't anywhere near as expensive as you could go on a car. Even £200/month on lease costs isn't really all that much.

Why the changes is costs...
£600 insurance looks like a 20 something might pay... £350 seems more realistic.
£150/month lease costs or repayments This is the only cost which looks about right, but £99 is popular and at least 4 of my friends do that.
£120 breakdown cover this is in the insurance, but otherwise on the island we dont bother because you are never all that far from home to need it.
£140 VED with the cars that cost £99-150 then £30 is much closer to the mark
£10/week in parking IF you are paying for parking its going to be a lot more than that which is why most dont, not here on the island.
£160 servicing part of the sales agreement on car these days so its £0
£100 on tyres you wont spend £100 a year, maybe £120 every 3 years in my experience.

Which in the real world comes out to about. Just owning it without driving anywhere isnt as expensive as you are making out.

£350 insurance
£150/month lease costs or repayments
£0 breakdown cover
£30 VED
£0/week in parking
£0 servicing
£30 on tyres

There really isnt much between them in cost. I know from actual experience of doing it!
And while a car has an additional cost of fuel that is more than taken care of by the fact that is at your beck n call at all times and compounded by the fact that the bus only covers you to getting home from work, as it doesnt start running until the time you start work.

 

[The Ham]

St Marys roundabout is a problem but the solution is as much about getting the go ahead for a new underhanded development on the Camp hill site as it is about easing traffic, which would be better served with a fly over at either end of the dual.



Thats true, its little surprise the line loses money considering a large portion of fares are not collected.
Last time I went on the train from the pier head to St Johns I wasnt asked for a ticket, the last two times a return trip from Ryde to Sandown I wasnt challenged at all.



Why the changes is costs...
£600 insurance looks like a 20 something might pay... £350 seems more realistic.
£150/month lease costs or repayments This is the only cost which looks about right, but £99 is popular and at least 4 of my friends do that.
£120 breakdown cover this is in the insurance, but otherwise on the island we dont bother because you are never all that far from home to need it.
£140 VED with the cars that cost £99-150 then £30 is much closer to the mark
£10/week in parking IF you are paying for parking its going to be a lot more than that which is why most dont, not here on the island.
£160 servicing part of the sales agreement on car these days so its £0
£100 on tyres you wont spend £100 a year, maybe £120 every 3 years in my experience.

Which in the real world comes out to about. Just owning it without driving anywhere isnt as expensive as you are making out.

£350 insurance
£150/month lease costs or repayments
£0 breakdown cover
£30 VED
£0/week in parking
£0 servicing
£30 on tyres

There really isnt much between them in cost. I know from actual experience of doing it!
And while a car has an additional cost of fuel that is more than taken care of by the fact that is at your beck n call at all times and compounded by the fact that the bus only covers you to getting home from work, as it doesnt start running until the time you start work.

The problem with the above comparison is that you are comparing two bus tickets with one car.

That means that either one person doesn't have access to the car for most of the day or they have to drop the other person at work, adding to the time they are traveling and to the overall cost.

 

[cactustwirly]

Only when you have a cheap car, of we do it again where you're paying:

£600 insurance
£150/month lease costs or repayments
£120 breakdown cover
£140 VED
£10/week in parking
£160 servicing
£100 on tyres

That's £3,420 a year before you've driven anywhere, that's quite a bit more than the £2,250 it would cost for two bus passes for 450 days (which I used as 360 days isn't quite enough to cover a whole year, which is what 4*90 day passes would get you).

Those costs, although higher, aren't anywhere near as expensive as you could go on a car. Even £200/month on lease costs isn't really all that much.

That servicing cost is a little high?
Plus the VED is very arbitrary, can be as little as £30 under the old system.
Not everyone leases a car either, as that is usually more expensive than buying outright.
I did a spreadsheet earlier in the year, comparing running costs of models of cars, plus the purchase costs of each.
The day to day running costs were not anywhere near £3000?

Personally I'd rather spend a bit more on a car, than have to suffer the bus everywhere.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

The problem with the above comparison is that you are comparing two bus tickets with one car.

That means that either one person doesn't have access to the car for most of the day or they have to drop the other person at work, adding to the time they are traveling and to the overall cost.

No its actually one bus ticket.
In the normal course of events of actually getting from somewhere people live to somewhere a person might work. For instance a person in Pan estate and works in Neutrik, or a person who lives in Ryde and works in St Marys hospital, or anywhere else north of there they would actually need to get 2 buses to work and 2 buses home, and at £3.50 per bus its simply not practical to pay full fare on a bus its £7 to get anywhere. So we use the Freedom ticket costs, which is quite a chunk of your wages at £75 a month of £225 when you buy it, it lasts 90 days.

That servicing cost is a little high?
Plus the VED is very arbitrary, can be as little as £30 under the old system.
Not everyone leases a car either, as that is usually more expensive than buying outright.
I did a spreadsheet earlier in the year, comparing running costs of models of cars, plus the purchase costs of each.
The day to day running costs were not anywhere near £3000?

Personally I'd rather spend a bit more on a car, than have to suffer the bus everywhere.

Its more expensive in the long run but if you simply dont have the money to buy a "cheaper" car right now then the only option is to lease it and Prem Ford do one for £99 a month all in.
They give you free servicing so you take it to them to be serviced otherwise you would take it to joe bloggs down the back road because hes much cheaper. And they cant quality control that service.

The bus on the island might be good compared to other places but when it stands alone with its actual competitors then it aint that great. In fact its rather poor

 

[The Ham]

No its actually one bus ticket.
In the normal course of events of actually getting from somewhere people live to somewhere a person might work. For instance a person in Pan estate and works in Neutrik, or a person who lives in Ryde and works in St Marys hospital, or anywhere else north of there they would actually need to get 2 buses to work and 2 buses home, and at £3.50 per bus its simply not practical to pay full fare on a bus its £7 to get anywhere. So we use the Freedom ticket costs, which is quite a chunk of your wages at £75 a month of £225 when you buy it, it lasts 90 days.



Its more expensive in the long run but if you simply dont have the money to buy a "cheaper" car right now then the only option is to lease it and Prem Ford do one for £99 a month all in.
They give you free servicing so you take it to them to be serviced otherwise you would take it to joe bloggs down the back road because hes much cheaper. And they cant quality control that service.

The bus on the island might be good compared to other places but when it stands alone with its actual competitors then it aint that great. In fact its rather poor

£225*4 (450 days) = £1,125
Two bus tickets = £2,250
Or
£150*12 = £1,800
However on top of that it's £350 insurance so that's £2,150 before you spend anything on petrol.

There's two other things to consider:
The bus tickets are for 450 days as otherwise it's only 360 days, on a 3 year period it's £5,850 for two tickets

We have ignored the deposit required, that's easily an additional £1,500, so over three years with £99/month and £350 insurance that's £6,114 plus fuel.

Either way it's comparable to two tickets rather than one.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I have to admit to some sympathy for ElectroSoldier's position. In almost all circumstances, private transport has greater convenience than public transport: it's only when you have a bus stop right outside your front door for the route to the stop right outside your office, and when the bus manages to be amazingly frequent and avoiding the traffic jams that catch the cars that public transport begins to match the convenience of a car. The difficulty is in expressing the car's convenience in monetary terms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The difficulty is in expressing the car's convenience in monetary terms.

And also because while business does model in this way people don't actually see value in this kind of way.

Most people probably more have a vague idea of what they spend on their car and it's an acceptable sum, and the only thing they pay attention to is the cost of fuel on a long trip (less so a collection of short ones). Some people do account everything to the penny, but they are a minority.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

£225*4 (450 days) = £1,125
Two bus tickets = £2,250
Or
£150*12 = £1,800
However on top of that it's £350 insurance so that's £2,150 before you spend anything on petrol.

There's two other things to consider:
The bus tickets are for 450 days as otherwise it's only 360 days, on a 3 year period it's £5,850 for two tickets

We have ignored the deposit required, that's easily an additional £1,500, so over three years with £99/month and £350 insurance that's £6,114 plus fuel.

Either way it's comparable to two tickets rather than one.

A more normal low end car because its affordable would be £99*12 = 1,188 which is £1,538 plus petrol at about £25 for a work your trips to work each week (based on actual experience of a 5 days a week trip to work and back) SO ABOUT £1,638 OR £4,914 for 3 years.

Thats not trying to paint a more rosy picture than it is, thats the reality of use here based on actually doing it, and not only for me, Im getting the same story off 4 guys.

The people I know do not consider the bus as a credible alternative to their car, considering the lack of convenience we all figure the car is more than worth any extra money, however they would use the train if it was reinstated.

 

[The Ham]

A more normal low end car because its affordable would be £99*12 = 1,188 which is £1,538 plus petrol at about £25 for a work your trips to work each week (based on actual experience of a 5 days a week trip to work and back) SO ABOUT £1,638 OR £4,914 for 3 years.

Thats not trying to paint a more rosy picture than it is, thats the reality of use here based on actually doing it, and not only for me, Im getting the same story off 4 guys.

The people I know do not consider the bus as a credible alternative to their car, considering the lack of convenience we all figure the car is more than worth any extra money, however they would use the train if it was reinstated.

Whilst I agree that there's £99 lease cars they will still have had to pay a deposit. Have you asked them how much deposit that they have had to pay? Without including the deposit you have missed out a chunk of money.

However even on one for one basis and using your figures a bus ticket is about 3/5 the cost at a saving of £1,990. That's quite a bit extra. Whilst for two people it's a saving of £936, however there'll be times when one person wouldn't be able to use the car and some of that saving would reduce as there'll be extra miles traveled.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

You know it really doesnt matter, we can talk about the finer points all day long but I think the point is made that there really isnt much between the one and the other.
Which given the isolated nature of the island isnt a good thing.

I mean if you live in Ryde and want to go to the shops you are looking at using your ticket to get to the supermarket and back with all those bags or just jump in the car.
Most of the island is off limits due to the isolated nature of it... Getting to the Checkers inn for instance, and we havent started on some of the small isolated towns and villages that are a good mile off the beaten track.

The fact is the bus isnt an attractive option for a large number of people on the island, and for some its no option at all.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The fact is the bus isnt an attractive option for a large number of people on the island, and for some its no option at all.

Conversely, with island-wide coverage in mind, the Island Line offers even less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Conversely, with island-wide coverage in mind, the Island Line offers even less.

And don't forget how the bus isn't really an option for anyone in similar places on the mainland because it simply doesn't exist. Vectis is really, really good. This thread is getting a bit like Londoners moaning about the Tube when the people of say Leeds would give their eye teeth for something equivalent.

 

[Rick1984]

I mean if you live in Ryde and want to go to the shops you are looking at using your ticket to get to the supermarket and back with all those bags

Perversely it's cheaper to get a return to Lidl in Shanklin by train than go to Tesco and back by bus

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perversely it's cheaper to get a return to Lidl in Shanklin by train than go to Tesco and back by bus

That presumes you are quite willing to carry around five full and heavy bags (said to be a normal-sized shopping occurrence) of your shopping from the supermarket to the station and then from the station to your place of residence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That presumes you are quite willing to carry around five full and heavy bags (said to be a normal-sized shopping occurrence) of your shopping from the supermarket to the station and then from the station to your place of residence.

If you're not, get a delivery.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Conversely, with island-wide coverage in mind, the Island Line offers even less.

It does, which is why it needs to be expanded.
Get some new revenue into the system, revenue that nobody is collecting because its being spent on cars

And don't forget how the bus isn't really an option for anyone in similar places on the mainland because it simply doesn't exist. Vectis is really, really good. This thread is getting a bit like Londoners moaning about the Tube when the people of say Leeds would give their eye teeth for something equivalent.

Again, I couldnt care less about other places in the country, making comparisons of that sort falls on deaf ears to me. I dont care what people in London do or dont think about the tube trains. Vectis is really good, Im not saying it isnt, what I am saying is they are far from perfect and for some simply not an option.

Perversely it's cheaper to get a return to Lidl in Shanklin by train than go to Tesco and back by bus

I thought exactly that when I was writing my last post.

That presumes you are quite willing to carry around five full and heavy bags (said to be a normal-sized shopping occurrence) of your shopping from the supermarket to the station and then from the station to your place of residence.

Given my location its an unfortunate example for your argument.
The bus stop is further from my place than the train station is by double distance and the walk to the supermarket once I arrive is about the same as from teh train station to the supermarket.
In this instance the train wins hands down as I dont have to carry it even half as far, the only disadvantage is time, it takes twice to time as the bus does, but then it goes more than twice the distance...
Its interesting that the train is quite a lot cheaper than the bus though.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given my location its an unfortunate example for your argument.
The bus stop is further from my place than the train station is by double distance and the walk to the supermarket once I arrive is about the same as from teh train station to the supermarket.
In this instance the train wins hands down as I dont have to carry it even half as far, the only disadvantage is time, it takes twice to time as the bus does, but then it goes more than twice the distance...
Its interesting that the train is quite a lot cheaper than the bus though.

Obviously, there will be instances such as you quote above, but taking Sandown as an example, what percentage of residential properties in that town will meet the criteria of being nearer the railway station than the areas of the town served by bus stops.

I may have a somewhat warped sense of humour, but when you described your home location in relation to a railway station, I immediately thought of the old adage....."Living above your station"...

 

[Rick1984]

I'd say the walk from

That presumes you are quite willing to carry around five full and heavy bags (said to be a normal-sized shopping occurrence) of your shopping from the supermarket to the station and then from the station to your place of residence.

Lidl to station not much longer than Tesco to bus stop. And again where I lived on Trinity Street not much difference between bus stop and train station.

Edit: I realise I've pretty much repeated what was above

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Obviously, there will be instances such as you quote above, but taking Sandown as an example, what percentage of residential properties in that town will meet the criteria of being nearer the railway station than the areas of the town served by bus stops.

I may have a somewhat warped sense of humour, but when you described your home location in relation to a railway station, I immediately thought of the old adage....."Living above your station"...

I can see you dont know the island very well.

There are many small more expensive supermarkets, most of which are in Newport now, especially as Asda opened its one and only store last year I think it was, and its quite a walk out of town... But I think there is a bus stop there and it does go to Sandown.

However the best supermarket is tesco (they use it on their tv advert dont you know).
Sandown has more or less two bus routes through it, and unless you live on one of them then the walk to the bus stop isnt short. Its about the same distance from the bus stop as it would be to the train station. However there is no stop near tesco so people dont bother as the walk up the hill is impossible and you end up at a supermarket similar to that in Sandown. Better the other way into Shanklin, the shop just a few minutes walk down the road, if you look on google maps you'll see the supermarket to the west of the station.

This is the honest to god truth.
Even for me living where I do in Ryde (right in the middle, near St johns station) its a shorter walk to Lidl in Shanklin than it is to Tesco in Ryde and that includes if I get a bus, and the train is cheaper because unless I buy a freedom ticket it will cost me £7 to get to and from the supermarket, while the train is about £2.50 tops.
Ashey and Binstead are a different matter, they are quite a way out from the station, just a 5 minute car ride from Tesco but the bus will go via the seafront bus station I believe.

Yes Southern Vectis is very good, maybe even the best in the country, but the local situation is rather different to most places in the country and a fair number of people just do not consider the bus service as a good alternative to a car for so many reasons, especially as most of the interesting places are quite out of the way and either not served by a bus or it takes an age to get there. Not Southern Vectis fault I will add, its just the way the land lays here.

However, like I said, the people I know would consider a train. And it wouldnt only need reinstating that which they took away all those years ago.

 

[cactustwirly]

If you're not, get a delivery.

Or use your car, which is cheaper and more convenient surely?

 

[jon0844]

Or use your car, which is cheaper and more convenient surely?

Unless you need something urgently, having your shopping delivered would seem more convenient than going in and picking everything yourself.

Of course you have click and collect too - but you don't need a car to do large shops these days.

 

[cactustwirly]

Unless you need something urgently, having your shopping delivered would seem more convenient than going in and picking everything yourself.

Of course you have click and collect too - but you don't need a car to do large shops these days.

But don't you have to wait ages for the food to be delivered, rather than just going when you want to

 

[Bletchleyite]

But don't you have to wait ages for the food to be delivered, rather than just going when you want to

You select when you want it delivered and it shows up within a 1 hour slot. You can do this up to the day before, but it's cheaper to do it further in advance.

If you mean "do you have to plan what you want in advance", yes you do. But most people do that anyway by preparing a shopping list, whether that be on a piece of paper or in their mind as "what we usually get". Almost nobody does a large weekly shop completely off the cuff with no thoughts whatsoever as to what they want before they step through the door, and those wanting to do a small off-the-cuff shop aren't going to have issues with carrying it around in a rucksack or similar or visiting a smaller, more local shop.

 

[Clip]

Or use your car, which is cheaper and more convenient surely?

£2 for someone else to pick pack and deliver me food to me doorstep is far more convenient than any other means of getting my food and i even live in London and near a decent sized Sainsbury but i generally always get the big shop delivered as its cheaper and more convenient than taking the car

 

[jon0844]

Amazon has a deal with Morrisons and you can book a delivery within two hours. I think delivery is £3.99, which isn't bad if I decide I need a few things (minimum order value is £15) and know that at 5pm, I could have it at 7pm.

£3.99 might be a bit more than the cost of fuel, but if you also consider the convenience (and delivery is free if you spend £40 I think) then it seems quite a good idea.