Split check: Farnborough to Blackpool and Derby?

[Broken Viking]

Hail All...Long time no post!
Next month I'll be travelling up to Blackpool for a three day coaster club event at the Pleasure Beach, and I'm also planning to visit my other half near Derby afterwards as that'll allow me to do two trips at once and economise on the fares.

I've just had a flick through both NFM05 (Avantix) and a couple of TOC websites and think I've managed to find the most efficient split that saves me eight quid on the direct VWC+connections/Any permitted fares...But as I'm still finding my feet with splitting in some ways, I'd just like to double-check that the following is the cheapest way of doing it whilst avoiding Advance and other restrictive fares:

• Part I: FNB --> BMO (Farnborough Main --> Birmingham Moor St)
  1. 2x SDS Farnborough --> Woking: £5.00 (SWT)
  2. OPR Woking --> † High Wycombe: £16.15 (Chiltern)
• Part II: BHM --> BPS (Birmingham --> Blackpool)
  1. PROMO Birmingham NS --> Liverpool LS: £6.60 (London Midland Internet Only OPR fare)
  2. SOR Liverpool LS --> Blackpool Stns: £10.10 (Northern)
• Part III: BHM --> DBY (Birmingham NS --> Derby)
  1. SVR Birmingham NS --> Derby: £9.00 (Arriva XC)

Obviously; I'd be using the outward portions from Part I to get to Birmingham (Which I'd be using as a routing hub in this case), followed by Parts II and III to reach their respective destinations, then using the return portions from Part I to get back home afterwards.

What I'd also like to know/double-check on before I go booking my tickets though is the following:

1. What are the restrictions on the discounted Internet Only return offered by LM, aside from it being an off-peak ticket valid on LM services only (Which I'm already aware of). What times do LM consider to be "off peak" in the Brum and Liverpool areas?
   Do LM offer electronic (Print at home) tickets, or would I need to queue and collect mine at BHM before travelling?
2. I tend to use Blackpool North and South/Pleasure Beach stations interchangably, and often I might wish to arrive via North, but leave out of South/PB at the end of my trip or vice-versa. All three stations are ticketed seperateley, but seem to have the same fares from Preston. If I hold a ticket for North, does the NRCoC or any Routeing Easement allow me to use South/PB if I so wish?
   (And I wonder: Why aren't Blackpool North/South/PB all collated as Blackpool Stations in the fares system? It'd save a lot of explicit decision making and worry over Penalty Fares if nothing else! )
3. Am I correct in thinking that a standard open return (AKA: Standard Anytime Return) allows the return trip to be made any time within a month of the outward journey, in the same manner as a Saver Return?
4. Are Liverpool and Blackpool really that close to each other that no Saver fare is available between LIV and BPS?
5. Regarding the LIV --> BPS leg: Would going to Warrington Central, walking to Bank Quay, taking a Pendo to Preston and changing there for Blackpool still qualify as a Permitted Route, or would it be invalid as it's not the shortest physical route? I'd like to get some Pendo running in en-route if it was allowed.
6. I can see day singles and returns available between Farnborough and Woking, but I'm surprised there's no SOR fare available. Is that because of the very short distance involved, or do SWT not think it's worth having them on that route?

Farewell for now...And many thanks in advance for any cheaper routeings, answers to above questions, or additional advice offered!
>> Death <<

 

[yorkie]

1. What are the restrictions on the discounted Internet Only return offered by LM, aside from it being an off-peak ticket valid on LM services only (Which I'm already aware of). What times do LM consider to be "off peak" in the Brum and Liverpool areas?
   Do LM offer electronic (Print at home) tickets, or would I need to queue and collect mine at BHM before travelling?

A Liverpool Stns to Birmingham Stns Off Peak Return (SVR) is valid "After 0930". I'd suggest phoning LM about the Internet Only tickets, if the information is not available online.

1. I tend to use Blackpool North and South/Pleasure Beach stations interchangably, and often I might wish to arrive via North, but leave out of South/PB at the end of my trip or vice-versa. All three stations are ticketed seperateley, but seem to have the same fares from Preston. If I hold a ticket for North, does the NRCoC or any Routeing Easement allow me to use South/PB if I so wish?
   (And I wonder: Why aren't Blackpool North/South/PB all collated as Blackpool Stations in the fares system? It'd save a lot of explicit decision making and worry over Penalty Fares if nothing else! )

It's barmy. But a possible solution may be to buy a ticket to KIRKHAM & WESHAM. Then, on the day ask for an over distance excess of the outward portion to whichever Blackpool station you wish. On the way back, do the same at Blackpool North station or on the train from South/Pleasure Beach.

1. Am I correct in thinking that a standard open return (AKA: Standard Anytime Return) allows the return trip to be made any time within a month of the outward journey, in the same manner as a Saver Return?

Outward is within 1 day on a Off Peak Return (SVR)
Outward is within 4 days on an Anytime Return (SOR)
Return is within 1 calendar month on either ticket type

Travel is valid beyond the expiry date for overnight stays up to 1200 (details posted here previously and available in Avantix Traveller).

1. Are Liverpool and Blackpool really that close to each other that no Saver fare is available between LIV and BPS?

It's an Anytime Return. This was the old Saver. Northern have been very honourable unlike certain other TOCs in that respect.

1. Regarding the LIV --> BPS leg: Would going to Warrington Central, walking to Bank Quay, taking a Pendo to Preston and changing there for Blackpool still qualify as a Permitted Route, or would it be invalid as it's not the shortest physical route? I'd like to get some Pendo running in en-route if it was allowed.

I would be surprised if via Preston is valid. But if you have a go checking the RG, if you get stuck let us know what stage you are stuck on and we'll help.

1. I can see day singles and returns available between Farnborough and Woking, but I'm surprised there's no SOR fare available. Is that because of the very short distance involved, or do SWT not think it's worth having them on that route?

They won't have ever existed and SWT are not in the business of introducing tickets that make travel cheaper for some people. However in the case of Farnborough to Woking, this is so close that I wouldn't expect an Anytime (SOR) fare to exist regardless of the history or TOC involved.

Hope that helps

 

[OwlMan]

Your tickets cost £51.85.
I would just buy a Farnborough to Blackpool via London for £55-25
You could go straight to London, catch a pendo to Preston and then to Blackpool. On the return the ticket is valid via Manchester & Sheffield to St Pancras via Derby (allowing use of HSTs).
You also have a lot more flexibility in both directions.


Peter

 

[janb]

Outward is within 1 day on a Off Peak Return (SVR)
Outward is within 4 days on an Anytime Return (SOR)
Return is within 1 calendar month on either ticket type

Outward is 5 days on an Anytime Return Yorkie.

 

[mickey]

A Liverpool Stns to Birmingham Stns Off Peak Return (SVR) is valid "After 0930". I'd suggest phoning LM about the Internet Only tickets

The web-special follows the same rules as a standard LM-only off-peak ticket, with the exception of the purchasing outlet.

I would be surprised if via Preston is valid.

Presumably you mean via Warrington? Otherwise how else can you get to Blackpool?
I don't know about Blackpool but for routings further north (i.e. the Lakes/Scotland) travel via Warrington and Preston is definitely a permitted route; indeed the journey planners frequently suggest it as an option. I'd suggest using the direct LIV-WBQ train if possible though to save the 20 minute walk across Warrington.
---
To the OP, I'd suggest looking into buying your £6.60 LM ticket as London-Liverpool. Surely this will work out cheaper and easier than the route via High Wycombe? It's valid on both the TV and Brum routes, if that helps, and don't forget you can connect to the Derby train at Tamworth as well as New St.

 

[yorkie]

Presumably you mean via Warrington? Otherwise how else can you get to Blackpool? .

I thought he was talking about going to Liverpool via Warrington & Preston. I now realise he is talking about going from Liverpool via Warrington & Preston to Blackpool, so yes that would be fine.

I find the topic very difficult to follow and am struggling to work out why such a combination of tickets is needed.

In fact, where does Liverpool come into it? It is unclear if Death is actually going to Liverpool or not? And, if not, why get a ticket to Liverpool?

It's giving me a headache even thinking about it.

I'd get a return to Blackpool and go via Liverpool if required (which is probably valid, but you'd need to check) and back via Derby (which is valid) and not get a complicated combination of far more restrictive tickets.

 

[mickey]

In fact, where does Liverpool come into it? It is unclear if Death is actually going to Liverpool or not? And, if not, why get a ticket to Liverpool?
It's giving me a headache even thinking about it.

Because he wants to save every last penny to spend when he gets there!
He's using the LM cheap ticket to get as far north as he can, which, since they stopped going to Preston themselves, is now Liverpool - hence the detour. Personally I'd probably get the SVR, but all credit to him for going to such lengths to get it as cheap as possible! (And I still think he may not have realised the LM ticket can be used EUS-LIV, which may make it cheaper still )

 

[OwlMan]

Try
Farnborough - Watford Junction via Kensington Olympia SVR 16.75
Watford J - Liverpool LM Web OPR 6-60
Liverpool - Blackpool SOR 10-10
Birmingham - Drby return £9-00

Total £42-45

Peter

 

[Broken Viking]

Your tickets cost £51.85. I would just buy a Farnborough to Blackpool via London for £55-25

Oh, the SWT singles are £5.00 in total, not priced individually. From what I can see my total is about £46.85, which gives an eight quid saving on the direct fare, and also covers all of my transport needs. 8)

Presumably you mean via Warrington? Otherwise how else can you get to Blackpool?

I was thinking that same question too...Unless the NRRG requires that I go to Southport and swim the rest of the way!

I'd suggest using the direct LIV-WBQ train if possible though to save the 20 minute walk across Warrington.

Cheers for that tip Mickey...I didn't think there was a curve linking the line out of Liverpool with the line through BQ, hence my idea about making the connection on foot.

To the OP, I'd suggest looking into buying your £6.60 LM ticket as London-Liverpool. Surely this will work out cheaper and easier than the route via High Wycombe? It's valid on both the TV and Brum routes, if that helps, and don't forget you can connect to the Derby train at Tamworth as well as New St.

(And I still think he may not have realised the LM ticket can be used EUS-LIV, which may make it cheaper still )

Ahh...I did try looking up EUS --> PRE and EUS --> LIV on the LM website last night and couldn't find any returns under £45,- on there. But I just went back, discovered the cunningly hidden Valid on LM trains only option...And lo and behold, I can see that same £6.60 fare from Euston. As it allows BOJ on the return leg (Although would a 2-3 week BOJ be acceptable? hock I can pretty much drop the Chiltern ticket from that working, I think!

Now: The Chiltern fare that I normally use is available from Woking and also covers the SWT leg of my journey as well, aside from doubling as a much cheaper than advertised open return to London! Would I be best off using two CDSs and Oyster to get me to Euston to pick up the LM service (An SWT saver only saves about 5p off 2xCDS!) or might a Chiltern ticket WOK-->†HWY be a cheaper way of doing it?
(I'll fire up Avantix later and have another poke, as I have to get off in a second.)

I thought he was talking about going to Liverpool via Warrington & Preston. I now realise he is talking about going from Liverpool via Warrington & Preston to Blackpool, so yes that would be fine.

My planned route runs in three phases and is something like:

1. FNB > WOK > WAT > MYB > BMO > BNS > LIV > PRE > BPS
2. BPS > PRE > LIV > BHM > DBY
3. DBY > BHM > BMO > MYB > WAT > WOK > FNB

The reason for this is because I am visiting two destinations one after the other, so effectively making a "triangular" journey.

I find the topic very difficult to follow and am struggling to work out why such a combination of tickets is needed.
In fact, where does Liverpool come into it? It is unclear if Death is actually going to Liverpool or not? And, if not, why get a ticket to Liverpool?

It's a split combo intended to cut my fares down as much as possible for this trip.

The reason Liverpool is included in my route as a waypoint - Aside from allowing a convenient smoke break - Is because that's where I'll be changing from LM's territory to Northern's realm. From what I've been told, the best fares can be had by splitting at TOC boundaries.

He's using the LM cheap ticket to get as far north as he can, which, since they stopped going to Preston themselves, is now Liverpool - hence the detour.

That's pretty much the general idea, much in the same way I use my usual Chiltern tickets as a way of getting to Birmingham on the cheap. In the long run it allows me to save a decent £31.25 (Normal fare £61.40) on the fare I'd be chinged if I took EMT services direct to Derby! hock:8)

Personally I'd probably get the SVR, but all credit to him for going to such lengths to get it as cheap as possible!

Cheers for the compliment, Mickey! I know that the saver is more convenient (And might even allow a BOJ'd journey via Sheffield/Derby on the way back) but the set that I've got so far saves eight quid and gets more coverage in...Especially as I'm yet to scratch anywhere in Liverpool!

Cheers again for making me aware that the LM fare is available from EUS as well though! I thought that BHM --> LIV for £6.60 was good enough on it's own...But that's EXCELLENT value from London!

By the by: Does anyone know when LM introduced this cheap off-peak return of theirs, and when it's available until? I'll have to dig around a bit, but I'm thinking that if I'd known about this fare sooner, I might've been able to save even more on my regular trips to Derby by changing at Tamworth insted!

Farewell, and many thanks for all the assistance thus far!
>> Death <<

 

[mickey]

Cheers for that tip Mickey...I didn't think there was a curve linking the line out of Liverpool with the line through BQ, hence my idea about making the connection on foot.

Technically it's a completely different line but yes there's a connection. LIV-WBQ goes through Huyton and Earlestown to the WCML, whereas the line to Central is the southern one through Hunts Cross and Widnes.

Ahh...I did try looking up EUS --> PRE and EUS --> LIV on the LM website last night and couldn't find any returns under £45,- on there. But I just went back, discovered the cunningly hidden Valid on LM trains only option...And lo and behold, I can see that same £6.60 fare from Euston. As it allows BOJ on the return leg (Although would a 2-3 week BOJ be acceptable? hock I can pretty much drop the Chiltern ticket from that working, I think!

Yes, as long as the return journey is completed within the validity of the ticket (i.e. one month).

Would I be best off using two CDSs and Oyster to get me to Euston to pick up the LM service?

That I don't know.

but the set that I've got so far saves eight quid and gets more coverage in...Especially as I'm yet to scratch anywhere in Liverpool!

Hmmm... When it was a couple of £ I'd have chosen the SVR, but when it's £8 and counting, I think I'd be swayed. I didn't realise collybs had miscounted! In any case, as you said, if it meets your requirements you might as well save the cash!
If you need routes, note that the northbound ticket out of Liverpool is valid via both the Wigan/WCML routes and on Merseyrail/Northern via Ormskirk.

Cheers again for making me aware that the LM fare is available from EUS as well though!

You're welcome.

By the by: Does anyone know when LM introduced this cheap off-peak return of theirs, and when it's available until? I'll have to dig around a bit, but I'm thinking that if I'd known about this fare sooner, I might've been able to save even more on my regular trips to Derby by changing at Tamworth insted!

This particular offer was introduced last week and is available for departure dates between 2 and 18 April. However, they often have super-cheap fares on routes out of Euston, of both the 'advance' type (usually £5 o/w to Tamworth and Nuneaton) and the off-peak/super off-peak type - use the same technique you used to find these ones, with the difference that usually they're available from other outlets too, not just LM's own site.

 

[Broken Viking]

Yes, as long as the return journey is completed within the validity of the ticket (i.e. one month).

So there's no restrictions on length of BOJ, aside from validity of the ticket itself then? That's very handy to know! 8)
One problem that I could see arising (Especially with the recently increased ticket checks on LM services) though would be the likelyhood of my return portion being clipped before I get to Tamworth.

How would I prove to LM staff that I'd legitimately BOJ'd at Tamworth (And still had validity left for the TAM --> EUS leg) and wasn't simply trying to "recycle" someone else's used return portion?
Would it be a good idea to get the Guard (Or staff at Tamworth) to sign a note or something stating that fact, or would I have to persuade the Guard not to clip my ticket when it is inspected?

Hmmm... When it was a couple of £ I'd have chosen the SVR, but when it's £8 and counting, I think I'd be swayed. I didn't realise collybs had miscounted! In any case, as you said, if it meets your requirements you might as well save the cash!
If you need routes, note that the northbound ticket out of Liverpool is valid via both the Wigan/WCML routes and on Merseyrail/Northern via Ormskirk.

Cheers for the routing info again, Mickey! If I get the time, I'll probabally try and route myself via Warrington BQ...As I'll be holding an Open Return for that leg, I doubt that Virgin'll be able to stop me getting some APT Pendo working in on it!

Anyhow...I've just come up with a slightly cheaper working based on the LM online ticket...See what ye make of this:

• £16.45 - SVR Farnborough --> London Terminals (SWT)
• £06.60 - PROMO SVR Euston --> Liverpool LS (LM Internet ticket, BOJ'd Tamworth on return leg)
• £10.10 - SOR Liverpool LS --> Blackpool Stns (Northern)
• £08.10 - SVR Tamworth --> Derby (Arriva XC)
• £41.25 - Total for all tickets. Saving £14.00 on the standard FNB --> BPN return fare. 8)

This particular offer was introduced last week and is available for departure dates between 2 and 18 April. However, they often have super-cheap fares on routes out of Euston, of both the 'advance' type (usually £5 o/w to Tamworth and Nuneaton) and the off-peak/super off-peak type - use the same technique you used to find these ones, with the difference that usually they're available from other outlets too, not just LM's own site.

Phew...I didn't realise it was a promo fare for Easter alone. And there was me worrying that I might've been paying more than needed on my usual SWT/Chiltern/AXC route! hock:

It's a pity that they're not going to be offering this fare for a longer period, but in this case they've got it going at just the right time as far as my journey is concerned! I will keep an eye out on the LM website for similar fares in future (Though I try to avoid Advance tickets as they're too inflexible for my liking).
IMO, any return fare between London and Liverpool for under £20.00 would still represent good value for money, even if it means using stoppers throughout! 8)

 

[mickey]

So there's no restrictions on length of BOJ, aside from validity of the ticket itself then?
[...]
How would I prove to LM staff that I'd legitimately BOJ'd at Tamworth and wasn't simply trying to "recycle" someone else's used return portion?
Would it be a good idea to get the Guard (Or staff at Tamworth) to sign a note or something stating that fact, or would I have to persuade the Guard not to clip my ticket when it is inspected?

BoJ (on the return part, note not outward) can be as long as you like. I've often wondered whether there's an official rule about how to do it. I've had guards who don't stamp it if I tell them I'm going to break, and I've heard of others who ask them to write 'used from X to Y on *date*' on the top, but usually it's essentially down to trust. It's their fault though, if you think about it - if they use clippers with headcodes and dates it's easy enough to work out when/where it's been used, but for staff who use scribbles or non-date stamps there's little they can do!

Anyhow...I've just come up with a slightly cheaper working based on the LM online ticket...See what ye make of this: [...] Saving £14.00 on the standard FNB --> BPN return fare.

I think that's a very good deal! If you've got the time and the inclination to follow that routing I say go for it - and buy yourself a few pints when you get there with the money you save!

IMO, any return fare between London and Liverpool for under £20.00 would still represent good value for money, even if it means using stoppers throughout!

There's a £15 (YP) super off-peak fare that I use quite a lot between London and Liverpool - as long as I'm not going on Sunday I usually don't mind taking an extra hour (and I quite like the Desiros!). The off-peak version is around £25. A super-off-peak return to Tamworth is £11.20 - I don't know how this compares with your Chiltern fare or whether it's still too restrictive for you.

 

[tony_mac]

There is a (not very frequent) service from Liverpool to Bank Quay, if you happen to like pacers.

If you are going to Blackpool at the weekend, then you can claim a free first-class upgrade on Virgin from Warrington to Preston

 

[mickey]

There is a (not very frequent) service from Liverpool to Bank Quay, if you happen to like pacers.

It's hourly, isn't it? OK it's not as nice or as frequent as the EMT/TPE expresses to Central but if it's at a decent time it's better than a 20 minute walk across Warrington, and it's much better than the dreadful Oxford Rd stoppers that go the other way!

 

[Broken Viking]

...and I've heard of others who ask them to write 'used from X to Y on *date*' on the top, but usually it's essentially down to trust.

I'll have to remember to ask the Guard or station staff if they'd be happy to do that, as it'd leave no doubt that I still have Tamworth --> Euston in the can when I break at the former!

I think that's a very good deal! If you've got the time and the inclination to follow that routing I say go for it - and buy yourself a few pints when you get there with the money you save!

Will do...Indeed, that saving is actually enough for an extra ride wristband for Sunday at the Pleasure Beach with the RCCGB members discount! 8)

...as long as I'm not going on Sunday I usually don't mind taking an extra hour...

Is the LM service between LIV --> TAM a bit iffy on Sundays then? I'll be making the first half of my return trip on the Sunday afternoon, and stopping for a few hours in Crewe if the conditions of my tickets allow that on top of my previously mentioned BOJ.

If you are going to Blackpool at the weekend, then you can claim a free first-class upgrade on Virgin from Warrington to Preston

Nice...Although I presume that'd just be free use of the FC carriages, and no refreshments or anything like that?
Either way...Would I need to apply in advance, or can I just ask the Guard when I board?

There is a (not very frequent) service from Liverpool to Bank Quay, if you happen to like pacers.

It's hourly, isn't it? OK it's not as nice or as frequent as the EMT/TPE expresses to Central but if it's at a decent time it's better than a 20 minute walk across Warrington, and it's much better than the dreadful Oxford Rd stoppers that go the other way!

Actually, I was thinking about that earlier on as well. One of the reasons why I'd rather go to Blackpool South over North if I can is because that's often worked by Pacers, and - Being one of the three enthusiasts who actually like the class - I'd probabally want to take the opportunity to get some more 142 mileage in if I can!
I can't remember where the services from BPS normally go to - But would they work LIV --> BPS directly? If so, then it'd give some nice 'n' bouncy riding over Liverpools numerous junctions and save a change at Preston!

Hmmm...Free FC on a short Pendo run that might not exceed 90mph, or some desired (And for me; Enjoyable!) albeit v.e.r.y s.l.o.w coverage of new lines on a direct Pacer that won't exceed 50? Decisions, decisions... hock:

 

[tony_mac]

Nice...Although I presume that'd just be free use of the FC carriages, and no refreshments or anything like that?
Either way...Would I need to apply in advance, or can I just ask the Guard when I board?

You are supposed to get the refreshments also, but you are only onboard for a short amount of time; you do it when you board.

From Liverpool you can go direct to Blackpool North, but not South, it may be a 156 or a pacer.

 

[flymo]

I can't remember where the services from BPS normally go to - But would they work LIV --> BPS directly? If so, then it'd give some nice 'n' bouncy riding over Liverpools numerous junctions and save a change at Preston!

They work Blackpool South, Preston, Blackburn, Accrington, Burnley & Colne hourly Mon-Sat and alternate journeys on Sundays run short Blackpool S - Preston only. (Table 97)

You can travel direct from Liverpool Lime St to Blackpool North though via St Helens Central, Wigan NW & Preston. (Table 90)

Looks like the change at Preston might be on the cards for Blackpool South.

 

[mickey]

Is the LM service between LIV --> TAM a bit iffy on Sundays then? I'll be making the first half of my return trip on the Sunday afternoon, and stopping for a few hours in Crewe if the conditions of my tickets allow that on top of my previously mentioned BOJ.

The through journey from Euston to Liverpool is iffy on Sundays because of the combination of... fewer trains (pm only, every 2 hours not hourly) EUS-CRE; more stops south of Northampton; and trains only being hourly BHM-LIV not the usual half-hourly, which consequently doesn't allow for the usual quick connection between the two in both directions at Stafford (not CRE as the London train diverts through Stoke and is 'overtaken' by the connection).

For you, stopping at Crewe (yes it's allowed) will actually make it easier as you won't have to worry about connection times. Just make sure you make a note of the times of the LM trains to TAM before you leave as they're not as frequent as on weekdays.

Actually, I was thinking about that earlier on as well. One of the reasons why I'd rather go to Blackpool South over North if I can is because that's often worked by Pacers, and - Being one of the three enthusiasts who actually like the class - I'd probabally want to take the opportunity to get some more 142 mileage in if I can!
I can't remember where the services from BPS normally go to - But would they work LIV --> BPS directly? If so, then it'd give some nice 'n' bouncy riding over Liverpools numerous junctions and save a change at Preston!

There are no direct connections between Liverpool and Blackpool South. Pacers sometimes work the stoppers to Wigan but (thankfully!) not usually the through ones to Preston or Blackpool. They frequently run the Liverpool-Earlestown-ManVic/WBQ routes and also the stoppers to and beyond Warrington Central on the other line. I have to say I won't be joining you on that quest though