South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Envoy]

The development itself doesn't prevent a future rail revival as long as a protected corridor through the site is retained. At least under light rail rules, total segregation is not necessary and new road crossings at grade are permitted, but as little interrunning with general road traffic as possible is still highly desirable for speed and reliability.

I don’t see any protected route on the plans. In fact I see the new estate being placed right next to the existing housing. On the Google Maps view that I have provided, we can clearly see the route of the old railway that once ran from Caerphilly to Newport by the line of trees. Clearly, at the Caerphilly end, this has been built upon and therefore it is vital that a new route is marked out in order to reach Caerphilly station. To not do this now and then perhaps have to resort to on-street running is plain daft. At the Newport end, it would clearly be desirable to use the present tracks and enter the station via the tunnel in order to provide the quickest most direct route and guarantee timings. (Mark Barry has suggested not doing this & taking to the streets of Newport on a winding route). Surely, you can’t guarantee the timings at the Newport end if you have on-street running at the Caerphilly end?

Here is the Google Map at the Newport end with the line from Machen Quarry (Caerphilly) coming in on the left:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5783612,-3.0241501,2653m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

 

[PHILIPE]

I don’t see any protected route on the plans. In fact I see the new estate being placed right next to the existing housing. On the Google Maps view that I have provided, we can clearly see the route of the old railway that once ran from Caerphilly to Newport by the line of trees. Clearly, at the Caerphilly end, this has been built upon and therefore it is vital that a new route is marked out in order to reach Caerphilly station. To not do this now and then perhaps have to resort to on-street running is plain daft. At the Newport end, it would clearly be desirable to use the present tracks and enter the station via the tunnel in order to provide the quickest most direct route and guarantee timings. (Mark Barry has suggested not doing this & taking to the streets of Newport some on a winding route). Surely, you can’t guarantee the timings at the Newport end if you have on-street running at the Caerphilly end?

Here is the Google Map at the Newport end with the line from Machen Quarry (Caerphilly) coming in on the left:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5783612,-3.0241501,2653m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

There are protests taking place as we speak about Persimmons application to build 600 houses at Gwern y Domen (there used to be a halt there in the past) which would seriously affect a route from Caerphilly to Newport. There have been over 2,600 letters of objection received by the Council up to the present time.

 

[Envoy]

The Gwern Y Domen (land east of Caerphilly) planning application was rejected. It should never have come to a situation where a developer was allowed to progress an application to build on land over which a potential new rail line was planned under the Metro proposals. Let us now hope that the plans for a business park on land east of Cardiff Airport are also scrapped as should such land be developed, it will prevent any future link by rail into the Airport from the railway east of Porthkerry viaduct.

 

[PHILIPE]

The Gwern Y Domen (land east of Caerphilly) planning application was rejected. It should never have come to a situation where a developer was allowed to progress an application to build on land over which a potential new rail line was planned under the Metro proposals. Let us now hope that the plans for a business park on land east of Cardiff Airport are also scrapped as should such land be developed, it will prevent any future link by rail into the Airport from the railway east of Porthkerry viaduct.

Gwern y Domen at the back of my hose where we enjoy a great view at the moment. Persimmon will appeal to the Welsh Government and they will probably just nod it through.

 

[Cardiff123]

Gwern y Domen at the back of my hose where we enjoy a great view at the moment. Persimmon will appeal to the Welsh Government and they will probably just nod it through.

I guess it depends on how desperately Welsh Labour want to hold on to the constituency at any forthcoming Parliamentary and Assembly elections

 

[Envoy]

Gwern y Domen at the back of my hose where we enjoy a great view at the moment. Persimmon will appeal to the Welsh Government and they will probably just nod it through.

So, why would the Welsh Government draw up all these ‘Metro’ plans - including a route from Caerphilly to Newport and then allow development on land that would be needed to get the re-built line through to Caerphilly station?

 

[HowardGWR]

I guess it depends on how desperately Welsh Labour want to hold on to the constituency at any forthcoming Parliamentary and Assembly elections

Would it not depend more on what a Planning Inquiry Inspector would recommend in line with the Local Plan (or Welsh equivalent, I'm not familiar with your terminology)? Is the route safeguarded in it?

 

[anthony263]

Story on wales online saying Welsh government looking to green light new stations at Ely mill in Cardiff and st clears in west Wales

 

[Envoy]

Those interested in the South East Wales Metro project might like to read this:>https://www.iwa.wales/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/MetroAndMeDigiFinal.pdf

 

[daodao]

Those interested in the South East Wales Metro project might like to read this:>https://www.iwa.wales/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/MetroAndMeDigiFinal.pdf

I have skim read it, but noted that my former place of work, the Royal Gwent Hospital, was renamed as the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, which is actually near Llantrisant !!! With the building of a new acute hospital at Llanfrechfa Grange, the "Gwent" as it is colloquially known, will become less of a traffic generator.

Such a gross error makes me suspicious of the fantasy proposals, such as re-opening Hengoed viaduct, contained within the document.

 

[Envoy]

I have skim read it, but noted that my former place of work, the Royal Gwent Hospital, was renamed as the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, which is actually near Llantrisant !!! With the building of a new acute hospital at Llanfrechfa Grange, the "Gwent" as it is colloquially known, will become less of a traffic generator.

Such a gross error makes me suspicious of the fantasy proposals, such as re-opening Hengoed viaduct, contained within the document.

The new Llanfrechfa Hospital will become a traffic generator because it is not located on any rail line.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Travelling up to Ponty yesterday the demolition in the Taff's Well depot sight seems to be proceeding apace. Only the Forgemaster's building remains. In very minor news, someone has opened a coffee cabin on the Taff's Well station platform. It was closed when I went past and I suspect it only opens for the morning commute. There wouldn't be much of a market at other times.

 

[59CosG95]

This article in the Rail Engineer shines a light on which lines in the Valleys are due to become electrified. https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2019/09/09/tackling-electrification-the-challenge-for-wales-borders/
To summarise:

• Tri-mode (diesel, OLE, battery) FLIRTs on Rhymney/Coryton - Grangetown services; diesel is included so units can run to Penarth, Barry & Bridgend (via the unelectrifed SWML or the VoG), and potentially elsewhere if required.
  • Queen Street to Rhymney will operate on OLE and battery power, including an unwired section between Caerphilly and Lisvane & Thornhill, where battery-only operation will be used to avoid costly waterproofing works in Caerphilly tunnel. (No cost given, but given the length of the tunnel and importance of the route, the scope to waterproof & electrify may be prohibitively pricey compared to batteries!)
    
  • It doesn't explicitly state that Queen Street - Central - Grangetown will be wired either.
• Bi-mode (OLE & battery only) CityLinks (i.e. tram-trains) on services from Merthyr Tydfil, Aberdare & Treherbert, and Queen Street - Cardiff Bay services.
  • The Cardiff Bay Branch will be battery-only-operated, and the new station there will be future-proofed for on-street running.

 

[Paul Dancey]

Having read that article it sounds rather like the idea is to drop into battery mode for trains from Queen street to Grangetown, and then swap to diesel at Grangetown. That would at least help pollution levels in central areas of Cardiff. But as I thought the last leg of the Journey to Rhymney was going to be on battery, wouldn't it be possible to stay on battery on the Penarth services. It's only a short hop? Or is that too far on battery mode.

 

[krus_aragon]

Having read that article it sounds rather like the idea is to drop into battery mode for trains from Queen street to Grangetown, and then swap to diesel at Grangetown. That would at least help pollution levels in central areas of Cardiff. But as I thought the last leg of the Journey to Rhymney was going to be on battery, wouldn't it be possible to stay on battery on the Penarth services. It's only a short hop? Or is that too far on battery mode.

I'd be surprised if Queen St - Central weren't electrified, given that the mainlines through Central are. Without the benefit of being in the area and close to the action recently, I'd think that with Canton Depot being wired up (am I right in this?), it'd be more complex to wire multiple short run-offs of electrification around the Penarth Curve than it would be to extend the wires to Grangetown and have one set of run-offs there.

 

[59CosG95]

I'd be surprised if Queen St - Central weren't electrified, given that the mainlines through Central are. Without the benefit of being in the area and close to the action recently, I'd think that with Canton Depot being wired up (am I right in this?), it'd be more complex to wire multiple short run-offs of electrification around the Penarth Curve than it would be to extend the wires to Grangetown and have one set of run-offs there.

AIUI, Canton isn't being electrified at present. It'd make sense IMHO to wire Grangetown to Queen St, especially given that NR have provided for it in their plans at Cardiff Central, as well as the reasons you've described.

 

[59CosG95]

I'd be surprised if Queen St - Central weren't electrified, given that the mainlines through Central are. Without the benefit of being in the area and close to the action recently, I'd think that with Canton Depot being wired up (am I right in this?), it'd be more complex to wire multiple short run-offs of electrification around the Penarth Curve than it would be to extend the wires to Grangetown and have one set of run-offs there.

AFAIK, the only long-ish battery stretch on the Rhymney line is through Caerphilly Tunnel. Expect wires to be up either side for the whole run, albeit with Permanent earthing at some of the lower bridges.

 

[Envoy]

AIUI, Canton isn't being electrified at present. It'd make sense IMHO to wire Grangetown to Queen St, especially given that NR have provided for it in their plans at Cardiff Central, as well as the reasons you've described.

Unfortunately, Network Rail have not placed extended booms over to Platform 6 from P4 at Cardiff Central. This means that extra expense will be needed to put new vertical posts up on P6 along with the horizontal booms in the event that the ‘Metro’ lines get electrified at Central. Network Rail have also recently installed a new signal to serve the new P8 in such a position that it blocks a potential route to send the Metro trains off the Taff bridge and down to street level on the south side of the station. You can see my photos of this by going back 1 page to 88 and post 2639.

In the event that we have electric stoppers on the relief’s going between Cardiff & Bristol Temple Meads/Bath (once wired), then surely Canton depot would need wiring.

 

[MarkyT]

Network Rail have also recently installed a new signal to serve the new P8 in such a position that it blocks a potential route to send the Metro trains off the Taff bridge and down to street level on the south side of the station. You can see my photos of this by going back 1 page to 88 and post 2639.

This one I assume:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/signal-cf2947-rear-cardiff-central-jpg.66943/

Also looking at Google Earth, I think even with that in place there would be room to squeeze a double track formation to the south of this structure, especially once the old panel box and other obsolete signalling buildings have gone. Alternatively, with comparatively short trains in use, the whole structure might be moved back a little further east and re-erected on a new foundation. The only signal it carries is actually for P7. The down platform starter signal for P8 is a separate sort straight post right on the end of that platform, not in line, a little further east.

 

[Cardiff123]

The Queen St to Rhymney line is being electrified all the way up to Rhymney, excepting Caerphilly tunnel.
This was confirmed by TfW Director Colin Lea in a presentation at Cardiff Uni in July.

 

[John R]

The Queen St to Rhymney line is being electrified all the way up to Rhymney, excepting Caerphilly tunnel.
This was confirmed by TfW Director Colin Lea in a presentation at Cardiff Uni in July.

That’s very positive, as the original statements at launch were that the line would only be wired as far north as Ystrad Mynach.

 

[Dai Corner]

That’s very positive, as the original statements at launch were that the line would only be wired as far north as Ystrad Mynach.

That's what I thought. Did they definitely mean 'electrified' as opposed to 'electrically operated' which could mean batteries (and gravity!) north of Ystrad Mynach? I have heard rumours somewhere that once the CVLs are out of Network Rail's control they could drop to light rail standards. That might enable cheaper construction and operation so the money goes further.

 

[Envoy]

The Queen St to Rhymney line is being electrified all the way up to Rhymney, excepting Caerphilly tunnel.
This was confirmed by TfW Director Colin Lea in a presentation at Cardiff Uni in July.

Well, if that’s the case, why not also electrify the relatively short distance from Queen Street to Penarth as then the Flirts on this route would not need the diesel engine? Flirts operating between Coryton & Bridgend via Rhoose would of course, need the diesel engine in the middle.

 

[krus_aragon]

Well, if that’s the case, why not also electrify the relatively short distance from Queen Street to Penarth as then the Flirts on this route would not need the diesel engine? Flirts operating between Coryton & Bridgend via Rhoose would of course, need the diesel engine in the middle.

Probably operational flexibility, in that a unit could operate either diagram.

 

[Dr Day]

AFAIK south of Queen Street (certainly south of Central) and the City Line via Ninian Park was not defined part of the Core Valleys Network and remaining with Network Rail rather than transferring to TfW. So don’t not part of the TfW scheme.

Bonkers but believe there were too many interfaces with the rest of the railway at central and Cardiff West for the Barry Penarth bit to be included. The original thinking was that the Core Valleys could be completely independent with cheaper light rail principles adopted and more on street extensions but the continuation of a freight service put paid to that.

Other bidders may have proposed an entirely different electrification and traction solution, but we may never know!

 

[Envoy]

AFAIK south of Queen Street (certainly south of Central) and the City Line via Ninian Park was not defined part of the Core Valleys Network and remaining with Network Rail rather than transferring to TfW. So don’t not part of the TfW scheme.

Bonkers but believe there were too many interfaces with the rest of the railway at central and Cardiff West for the Barry Penarth bit to be included. The original thinking was that the Core Valleys could be completely independent with cheaper light rail principles adopted and more on street extensions but the continuation of a freight service put paid to that.

Other bidders may have proposed an entirely different electrification and traction solution, but we may never know!

The City Line from Ninian Park (Leckwith Junction - just to the west) is used when trains on the main line from west Wales are diverted around the south side of the Canton depot into Central. However, I do note that the tram-trains from the central valleys will indeed be using this section of track. I can see no way in which these can be separated off from the Network Rail tracks in central Cardiff. Of course, the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line via Barry & Rhoose and including the Penarth Line as far as Cogan junction is also a diversionary route for the main line trains.

 

[Cardiff123]

That's what I thought. Did they definitely mean 'electrified' as opposed to 'electrically operated' which could mean batteries (and gravity!) north of Ystrad Mynach?

25 kV wires all the way up to Rhymney, except for Caerphilly tunnel. The original plan was for wires only as far as Ystrad Mynach and then just to wire Rhymney station and depot, but Keolis Amey found that it was too difficult to install an isolated electricity supply at Rhymney, so will be putting wires all the way up to Rhymney instead.

Well, if that’s the case, why not also electrify the relatively short distance from Queen Street to Penarth as then the Flirts on this route would not need the diesel engine? Flirts operating between Coryton & Bridgend via Rhoose would of course, need the diesel engine in the middle.

Probably operational flexibility, in that a unit could operate either diagram.

Also the fact that south of Queen St is NR infrastructure.

AFAIK south of Queen Street (certainly south of Central) and the City Line via Ninian Park was not defined part of the Core Valleys Network and remaining with Network Rail rather than transferring to TfW. So not part of the TfW scheme.

The City Line from a point around Ninian Park to Radyr is transferring to TfW and will be 25kV electrified.

Bonkers but believe there were too many interfaces with the rest of the railway at central and Cardiff West for the Barry Penarth bit to be included. The original thinking was that the Core Valleys could be completely independent with cheaper light rail principles adopted and more on street extensions but the continuation of a freight service put paid to that.

Other bidders may have proposed an entirely different electrification and traction solution, but we may never know!

According to a TfW article/advertisement in the current issue of RAIL magazine, James Price says: "We received 3 fully compliant bids, that encompassed light rail, heavy rail and hybrid systems - which is what we ended up with..."

 

[S-Bahn]

Still not a fan of the proposals. All this bi-mode, tri-mode, batteries, flux-capacitor, warp drive etc just complicates things in the long run. Should just electrify everything between the Severn Tunnel and Swansea.

TFW only needs two core types of bi-mode trains. 4/5 car commuter trains and 4/5 car longer distance.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Still not a fan of the proposals. All this bi-mode, tri-mode, batteries, flux-capacitor, warp drive etc just complicates things in the long run. Should just electrify everything between the Severn Tunnel and Swansea.

No one would disagree with you on that but with Network Rail's ownership of much of the infrastructure, that's not going to happen any time soon.

The Welsh Government is trying to get as much of the job done as it can which, in my view, is far better than just sitting on its hands.

 

[Dai Corner]

No one would disagree with you on that but with Network Rail's ownership of much of the infrastructure, that's not going to happen any time soon.

The Welsh Government is trying to get as much of the job done as it can which, in my view, is far better than just sitting on its hands.

If only the two Governments could work together and WG had specified bimodes instead of diesels for South Wales, electrification to Swansea via the main line might have been justified. The Vale of Glamorgan, Penarth, Barry Island, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale could have followed as and when funds permitted.