LIVID! Just got a penalty fare!

[jon0844]

Okay, we all know how these emails go... but I am absolutely fuming after the treatment from an FCC RPI at Welwyn Garden City tonight.

As has been discussed on here before, there is no way to get a ticket extension from Old Street (I have a season to Hatfield) and every now and then I go to Welwyn Garden City.

I always arrive and seek the RPI (even if the gates are open), with my ticket on show and money in hand. I either get charged the fare, or sometimes get let through - which is entirely up to them. I would NEVER walk through the gateline if it was open without looking for a member of staff first.

Once before I was threatened with a £20 PF before a colleague told her that it was okay and I was sold a ticket.

Today the same thing happened, except the RPI said that he was 100% certain I could buy extensions from Old Street and I should have bought one. I suggested 100% was quite optimistic, given he was wrong! So he went upstairs to 'speak to someone' and came back saying he was definitely right. His colleague stayed with me and apologised saying he didn't know either way. I'm pretty sure that he was one of the RPIs that has previously let me through (a long time ago), but I couldn't be sure.

Anyway, apparently there was absolutely no doubt about it, so it was a £20 penalty fare - but if I appealed and was right, I'd get the money back and he'd apologise. Hmmm, he's 100% certain but might be wrong?

He then asked for my ID, which I gave. He did the necessary checks (by phone), but then asked what county Hatfield was in. Erm, same one as WGC!! Good local knowledge!!

What got me was;

a) He kept saying I could get a ticket extension. I made it clear that as a LUL run station, I cannot.
b) I kept saying that I've done this many times before.
c) I pointed out that I was hardly out to evade paying when I always approached the staff.
d) I asked what I should do otherwise, given I can't get an extension.

He answered that I either got off at Hatfield and bought the extension there (no bloody way am I crossing a bridge twice and queueing up) or should plan ahead. The thing is, these extensions are last minute decisions (to meet the wife after work) so unless I knew in the morning, I still couldn't get one during the day unless I went to King's Cross at lunchtime. The fact is; Old Street can't do extensions.. I think I may just have mentioned this once or twice!

What really annoyed me most was when he gave me the PF and said, 'and if you want to appeal - although I guess you'll know all this already - then you...'. Erm, no. I've never had a PF in my life - and that's after some 10 years of travelling and paying around £3,500 a year. I got really annoyed that he was sarcastically implying that I do this all the time (clearly I'm not very good with this fare evasion lark).

My ticket (see below) says I travelled beyond validity. Now I am worried he's going to say that I said I'd boarded at Hatfield (using my season to get through the gates). It's my word against his that I'd come from Old Street.. unless they pull the CCTV from the 1740 from Old Street and see me getting on and sitting there for the whole journey.

And to top it off; another reason why I question his '100% sure' is that I asked this question to FCC and got a response from the MD;

Question Number:103
From: Mr Jonathan Morris

Since moving office to Old Street, I've noticed a problem with ticketing facilities offered by a station operated by London Underground.

I may sometimes need to go beyond Hatfield to Welwyn Garden City. As a season ticket holder, I am entitled to get a ticket extension (or basically, a single ticket from Hatfield to Welwyn Garden City with a Gold Card discount).

When I recently asked for a ticket, I was told they cannot issue any tickets for FCC besides a journey starting AT Old Street. The discount wasn't even an issue, as they simply can't issue one starting from another station at any price!

On this occasion, I went to King's Cross via the Northern Line and bought an extension there instead, but that's hardly convenient and not something I intend to do again!

This means that to go to WGC, without going to an entirely different starting point, I will have to travel without a ticket for the last stop - and try and explain to gateline staff when I arrive.

Am I likely to encounter problems by doing that? Can't LUL have their ticketing system updated to offer a wider range of tickets?

This also begs the question, why can't you buy ticket extensions from ticket machines?

Answer:

Unfortunately, ticket machines operated LUL do not have the capability to issue ticket other than those from the station of origin and the range of tickets and discounts is limited.

Our Revenue Protection staff are aware of this issue and if you wish to travel beyond Hatfield, you will not be penalty fared , just required to pay the fare from Hatfield to for example WGC.

Current ticket machines only have the ability to issue from the station where they are located. Work is being carried out with our suppliers to improve the ability of the current range ticket machines to offer more services.

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.u...ionNumber=&sAskedby=&sSearchFor=&iSectionId=2

What also worries me is that I'll do this again at some point in the future.. so do I now have to carry this print out and a confirmation from the MD every time I travel?

I would love to know who he asked to confirm his facts, or whether he just stood at the top of the stairs for a few minutes twiddling his thumbs.


(In case you're wondering, I paid £3 as this was the minimum amount I am allowed to pay apparently - and I was not going to be out of pocket by £20 until the appeal is dealt with)

Funny thing; if you Google for "Old street can't issue ticket extensions" then look at the first link!

 

[transportphoto]

Only thing is take it up with FCC (Edit - LUL) immediately and get then to copy the CCTV footage and they may even let you go through it. I have never had a PF (and never intend to get one!) So if it goes to court you at least have the CCTV.

Also may be worth contacting LUL to get it in writing that their system can not issue NR extensions.

Also take the reply from Meet the Managers Q & A session.

Also (I like also's) contact the Fares Appeal Body as details on your PF (in Portsmouth!)

 

[jon0844]

Besides the CCTV to prove I was on the train from Old Street, why do I need to involve LUL? That's loads of extra work - and FCC has already confirmed it knows the situation. I'd bloody well hope so too, given their HQ is at Old Street!

Bar going to see Neal Lawson at Hertford House tomorrow morning, can you actually speak to anyone at the Prosecution Department at King's Cross in person? I really don't want this to drag on for ages and have to build up a huge defence.

 

[Aictos]

I'm disappointed you could PFed especially when the Revenue guys should be more then aware that you cannot get the extension to your season ticket at Old Street to continue onto Welwyn Garden City.

I would certainly appeal against it and if need be, speak to the Customer Service Director or Managing Director of FCC about it as well and explain about the reply that FCC gave on the Meet the Directors webchat and the problem that exists.

 

[bb21]

I hope you got that guy's name, and a complaint is thus lodged with both the company itself and cc-ed to First Group headquarters. If it goes to a court of law, the onus is on the company to prove that you got on at Hatfield rather than you. If they cannot prove that you got on at Hatfield then the court will have to take your word for it.

 

[jon0844]

To clarify; I'm not saying he WILL say I got on Hatfield or said that - but if he wanted to cover his ****, then that would be the most logical thing to say. The PF I signed would back this up after all.

Still, I think given my personal query with FCC, the fact that I WORK in Old Street (and would have plenty of witnesses), there's CCTV from the station AND onboard the 313, suggests he wouldn't get very far.

I didn't get his name (he wasn't wearing a badge, or it was under his coat) but I did get the badge number he quoted when he phoned up to verify my details. However, I think the number he wrote on the PF has a different end digit. Either I misheard, or he changed it. However, I know what I think he said - so that should still be easy to confirm.

 

[yorkie]

He then asked for my ID, which I gave. He did the necessary checks (by phone), but then asked what county Hatfield was in. Erm, same one as WGC!! Good local knowledge!!

This really annoys me. Why is it that one of these badly educated trumped up people who are completely WRONG can demand to see our ID?! We should be able to refuse when we know we are right. Either they get people who are 100% right, or we should be able to refuse to give ID. Can I ask him for ID for being wrong? No? Then why the hell should we give him ID!

What got me was;

a) He kept saying I could get a ticket extension. I made it clear that as a LUL run station, I cannot.
b) I kept saying that I've done this many times before.
c) I pointed out that I was hardly out to evade paying when I always approached the staff.
d) I asked what I should do otherwise, given I can't get an extension.

He answered that I either got off at Hatfield and bought the extension there (no bloody way am I crossing a bridge twice and queueing up) or should plan ahead.

Ask him what rule he is quoting from. The problem with these nazi-types is that they make the rules up! So of course they stumble when asked to explain themselves.

The thing is, these extensions are last minute decisions (to meet the wife after work) so unless I knew in the morning, I still couldn't get one during the day unless I went to King's Cross at lunchtime. The fact is; Old Street can't do extensions.. I think I may just have mentioned this once or twice!

What really annoyed me most was when he gave me the PF and said, 'and if you want to appeal - although I guess you'll know all this already - then you...'. Erm, no. I've never had a PF in my life - and that's after some 10 years of travelling and paying around £3,500 a year. I got really annoyed that he was sarcastically implying that I do this all the time (clearly I'm not very good with this fare evasion lark).

My ticket (see below) says I travelled beyond validity. Now I am worried he's going to say that I said I'd boarded at Hatfield (using my season to get through the gates). It's my word against his that I'd come from Old Street.. unless they pull the CCTV from the 1740 from Old Street and see me getting on and sitting there for the whole journey.

The onus should be on them to prove whatever they claim, surely?

And to top it off; another reason why I question his '100% sure' is that I asked this question to FCC and got a response from the MD;



http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.u...ionNumber=&sAskedby=&sSearchFor=&iSectionId=2

What also worries me is that I'll do this again at some point in the future.. so do I now have to carry this print out and a confirmation from the MD every time I travel?

If you want to avoid the hassle, I guess so. But it shouldn't be that way.

I would love to know who he asked to confirm his facts, or whether he just stood at the top of the stairs for a few minutes twiddling his thumbs.

Whoever confirmed it is clueless and badly educated. I hope that person isn't put in charge of anything safety critical as I wouldn't trust them.

 

[313103]

I dont think you need 20 A Levels, 20 O Levels and about 6 different Honours degrees to be an RPI But to accuse someone of being uneducated is a tad below the belt. I have NO A Levels, No O Levels, No CSE's, No GCE's and certainly no Honours degree, yet i dont consider myself to be uneducated and i have survived in this world for 30+ years since leaving school. I think your being a little bit disingenuous once again Yorkie.

As for accusing someone of being a Nazi, well you wont want me to comment on that.

Perhaps as you seem to be well versed up on ticketing arrangments (you sure your not a solictor from one of those no win, no fee companies?) why dont you educate those 'badly educated, trumped little Nazi's' in the ways of ticketing. I sure many companies will pay you a nice hefty fee for doing so.

 

[yorkie]

I hope you're not defending the actions of the RPI, if not then why post that?

No-one should ever treat a 'customer' in that way. There is NO EXCUSE. It's absolutely pathetic, disgusting and shameful. And yes they are uneducated, but that doesn't mean that you have to have good O levels or degrees to be educated - there are other ways of being educated.

There should be no room for Basil Fawlty types on the railway.

If a company wants to consult me on ticketing matters I'd be interested, there is no reason why I would refuse.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I'll do this again at some point in the future.. so do I now have to carry this print out and a confirmation from the MD every time I travel?

Well, obviously, it might just be helpful to you if you did.

But what you might also want to consider is, with a few photocopies of that official reply in your bag, is to spend a few minutes at the station when you next have the opportunity, and asking one of the staff if they would give you a few moments to pass on some useful info. Then explain what happened (with or without a copy of the PF - that's not crucial) and with the reply you've got from the TOC, and ask them if they'd post your info on the mess-room notice board.

You might even have gone to the bother of preping a helpful note to accompany it, explaining the "issue that can arise with passengers from Old Street".

You might ask, whay should I, a passsenger, have to take on the responsibility of training staff?, but then, if the employer doesn't do a goood job of it, surely its going to make your life easier if you become recognised as that helpful passenger who seems to know more than our line mananger does - ha ha".

I'm sure the staff concerned suffer from lack of training and/or lack of support - so they are just as likely to be grateful to you for some factual information if you can help them, than they are to be antagonistic to you if you don't.

 

[313103]

Actually untill i have heard both sides of the argument, which on this forum we are not going to get, unless of course the RPI in question is a poster on here. I will reserve judgement on taking sides either way ( which does not mean that i do not belive the OPs statement).

However i do like the ' No room for Basil Fawlty types' Pity we have those running railway companies, so do not expect the staffto be any different.

Actually if i was in the OPs position and worked near Hertford House i would take a visit there and asked to speak to a senior Manager.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, it is a lack of training/knowledge.

But I don't have a problem with that if people ADMIT that they do not know. What I have a major problem with, is when someone invents a rule or claims that they know a rule, when really there is no such rule.

A penalty fare is a fine in all but name. That one can be issued, with threats of criminal records if it is not paid, by someone who is making rules up is absolutely unbelievable and there is no way it should be allowed to happen.

Imagine if car drivers could be treated such a way. There is absolutely no way this country would put up with that! So why should we? I find it very concerning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually untill i have heard both sides of the argument, which on this forum we are not going to get, unless of course the RPI in question is a poster on here. I will reserve judgement on taking sides either way ( which does not mean that i do not belive the OPs statement).

But you could find out through your own means if Old Street can issue extensions or not! So no need to ask an RPI to repeat themselves that they can issue them. You can find out that they cannot!

However i do like the ' No room for Basil Fawlty types' Pity we have those running railway companies, so do not expect the staffto be any different.

Haha, well you're right in some cases, but not all.

But no, seriously, I do not (and no-one should) expect staff to be like that, and the vast majority are not like that. I always try to be prepared, and advise people to be prepared, in case you encounter someone who makes rules up, however the vast majority of the time that preparation is not needed.

It's just that I have heard of so many 'horror stories' (I do tend to be told of them!) and each one that occurs is one too many. They are very much the minority.

An attack on the minority of staff who give all other staff a bad name is not, in any way, an attack on the majority who do a very good job.

But I think we can both agree on one thing: if these trains were properly manned (as they should be) this would not have happened!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually if i was in the OPs position and worked near Hertford House i would take a visit there and asked to speak to a senior Manager.

Agreed! (that's two things at least )

 

[Old Timer]

Besides the CCTV to prove I was on the train from Old Street, why do I need to involve LUL? That's loads of extra work - and FCC has already confirmed it knows the situation. I'd bloody well hope so too, given their HQ is at Old Street!

Bar going to see Neal Lawson at Hertford House tomorrow morning, can you actually speak to anyone at the Prosecution Department at King's Cross in person? I really don't want this to drag on for ages and have to build up a huge defence.

Hey, calm down, Chap !

First things first.

Speak to Customer services tomorrow and explain what happened, and that you cannot get an extension at Old St. I am quite sure that this will be sorted out relatively quickly and without fuss.

There is obviously a communications issue somewhere, which you will need to pursue with them.

I think you will find a calm and professional approach will resolve things. These sorts of issues happen in all areas of business...it is how you approach them for a resolution that counts.

I know one or two people at FCC (not at your level I suspect) but sufficiently senior to enable this to be sorted out if you get stuck.

PM me if things not being resolved ?

OT

 

[yorkie]

Now that's a reply I like from you, OT

I agree that you need to be calm and professional. It can be very, very hard though. I've been wound up a lot by FGW RPIs and one Chiltern RPI/guard (on 2 occasions same guy!) and managed to win on each occasion by going through the conditions, and when they realised they were wrong they eventually gave up (no apology though).

It saddens me that a customer should ever have to go through any of that though.

 

[jon0844]

Actually untill i have heard both sides of the argument, which on this forum we are not going to get, unless of course the RPI in question is a poster on here. I will reserve judgement on taking sides either way ( which does not mean that i do not belive the OPs statement).

While the RPI could come on and say that everything I said about what I said and he said was made up - the fact is, I was not sold a ticket extension at WGC despite the fact that I am supposed to be. The photo of the PF proves I was given this instead of a ticket. So, forgetting what I claim to have happened, there's the 'proof' in black and white. Either that, or I didn't go to work today and got on at Hatfield (which also has CCTV) and tried it on - hoping the gateline would be unmanned and I'd save £1.60 or £1.70. (One more thing I forgot earlier is that my Oyster card would show as being scanned at around 1733).

While the RPI may well give a different version of the event to make himself look better, it won't change the fact that he was wrong.

I wish, with hindsight, I'd said something clever like "Are you willing to bet your car on it" or something, given that he was '100% sure' he was right. I mean, if you're saying 100% then you're pretty sure! Bet he wouldn't have done that though, especially after he said that if he was wrong he'd apologise. How can you be wrong when you're 100% sure?

Despite the fact that I'm a journalist (!), you should hopefully believe that what I said was 100% accurate*. I am fairly good at remembering situations and being able to document them accurately - it's my job.

In the first instance, I will email FCC tomorrow - rather than visit, even though I know exactly where the offices are, having been there before.

* Somewhat more 100% than his 100%

 

[Tom C]

John,

In fairness you have been sold an extention. Remember that a Penalty Fare is in essence an expensive ticket but because its a Penalty, you are given time to pay providing you can pay the Anytime Single on the spot. I am not saying that it is was correct to issue a Penalty Fare and of course if/when you win your appeal, all you would pay is the fare for the journey you are making. Of course that does not take into concideration the time you have to spend making your appeal.

Now, I don't work on the GN route and I am not for one second disputing what you are saying with regards to Old Street because I will be honest enough to say that I just don't know but I will say is that whilst it is your right to go through customer relations and FCC (and I would so that so that you can be sure that it does not happen again), I would STRONGLY advise that you get your appeal into IPFAS as soon as you possibly can. From experience I can tell you that FCC have replied to passengers on Penalty Fare matters and refered them to IPFAS only to find that by the time letters have been exchanged you are outside of the 21 days to appeal.

Sort out your appeal to the Portsmouth address first and then take your case up with FCC internally just to give you the peace of mind that at least you will not be billed with more charges because you have failed to act within the 21 days as from experience going through the TOC on matters such as this without going through IPFAS can lead to more trouble than its worth.

I hope that you reach the goals you want!

 

[jon0844]

I am not only entitled to pay the lowest possible off-peak price, but also get a 1/3 discount with my annual Gold Card. It's either £1.60 or £1.70 from memory, and 10p more if I am coming back.

I would not accept £20 as a valid 'extension' on the basis that I neither bought the ticket in advance (e.g. the morning or day before) or got off at Hatfield and bought a new ticket, possibly waiting up to 30 minutes for the next train.

I will certainly bear in mind your advice about getting an appeal in quickly. However, I'll see what FCC says first, in case they can override it there and then.

 

[DJ737]

Hi there

What do the ticket conditions state in regards to purchasing an extension?

1...Do they state that you may travel to a destination outside the tickets validity, and then purchase an extension?

2...Purchase the extension before travel commences?

3...Purchase the extension at the first available opportunity? (ie: at a station enroute)
or
4...None of the above?

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[Chris-P]

Hi there

What do the ticket conditions state in regards to purchasing an extension?

1...Do they state that you may travel to a destination outside the tickets validity, and then purchase an extension?

2...Purchase the extension before travel commences?

3...Purchase the extension at the first available opportunity? (ie: at a station enroute)
or
4...None of the above?

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

Over here, you have to either purchase the ticket before travel commences (most of the time), OR (if that can't be done)wait till the guard comes round on the train (or find them), or find someone at the destination/interchange station to purchase the ticket/extension, same with all tickets over here.

 

[jon0844]

Spoke to another RPI this morning who was very apologetic and helped me establish who he was, so now I have a name to go with the badge number! Seems his diamond earring was a dead giveaway!

And now, although not in writing, I got reconfirmation at Old Street that they cannot issue ticket extensions, with or without a discount. I was told to buy the ticket at the other end! Funny that.

(I couldn't obviously get someone at a ticket window to write me a letter on headed paper!)

 

[Daniel]

(I couldn't obviously get someone at a ticket window to write me a letter on headed paper!)

If you speak to LU Customer Services, (best way is by phone), I'm sure they can get you a letter on headed paper explaining that we can't issue extensions.
They're normally pretty good with things like that, and if they're not sure they call us and check.

 

[jon0844]

I will do that as a last resort, as I hope I won't need such a letter to prove my case! This could very quickly take up my whole life - and I've got a ton of work to do with a magazine going to press shortly.

I am going to write an email to FCC in the first instance and see what they say, then write my appeal letter later today.

I do wonder what would have happened if I'd flat out refused the penalty fare.

 

[yorkie]

I do wonder what would have happened if I'd flat out refused the penalty fare.

Maybe they'd have called BTP, who may well have spent just a few moments to realise that it would not be worth persuing (at least I'd hope they'd come to that conclusion as I am sure they have plenty of real issues to deal with).

 

[jon0844]

If my wife hadn't been waiting for me in the shopping centre, I would have happily stayed there all night if necessary.

 

[Tom C]

I do wonder what would have happened if I'd flat out refused the penalty fare

Normally, if a passenger refuses to pay the penalty fare either in full or at least the Anytime single for the journey then a MG11 would be completed.

 

[scrapy]

You are under no obligation to accept a penalty fare.

You are not in breach of any railway byelaws for not holding a ticket as stated in byelaw 17.

TRAVEL AND FARES
17. Compulsory Ticket Areas
(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

17(3i) states that if there were no facilities to buy your ticket, where you started your journey you are not in breach of byelaw 17(1) or 17(2). There is no requirement for you to purchase in advance or get off the train to buy a ticket.
17 (3iii) also exhonerates you as an authorised person gave you permission to travel (email from MD)

Whilst you are required to provide a name and address if the authorised person (penalty fares collector) has a suspicion you have commited a breach of byelaws, the person asking has to provide you with::-

i) In general terms, details of which byelaw they suspect you have breached
ii) Identification displaying the company they work for, and the TOC they represent (if different)
iii) A means of identification for this person. They do not hae to give their real name it can be an agreed alias or payroll/reporting number

You are under no obligation to provide a signature or any other details. I would in these circumstances ask them to purchase a normal ticket. If this is refused I would insist this is written on the penalty fare ticket.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps I'll go down that route next time.

That would mean everything said would have to be noted down wouldn't it? I think a full witness statement would have made for very interesting reading!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Update: An email has now been sent to FCC. Will await a response and then form my appeal letter tonight or tomorrow.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Could I just suggest that you change one part of your statement?
You've claimed "b) I kept saying that I've done this many times before."
Might be better to claim that you had been informed that it was acceptable to do this, on however-many times before, by employees of xxxxx. (I'm assuming that you had been informed)

Reason being, that while the matter is in dispute, then your argument b) invites the reply "you've been lucky that you've got away with it so often, and that's by your own admission." This risks incriminating you further.
Whereas my suggestion puts the responsibility for the advice onto the company (the staff who had told you it was okay), responsibility for advice that is now being contradicted by other staff. This compounds your criticism of the company by adding inconsistency to your claim.

 

[jon0844]

I do not feel this incriminates me in any way whatsoever. I have done it many times before because it's what I have been told is the correct thing to do. I cannot currently see any other solution, bar getting off at Hatfield or going to King's Cross via the tube, where I can get an extension.

If FCC were wrong to tell me this, and there is a way for me to get a ticket at Old Street that none of the staff seem aware of, then I would willingly pay the remaining £17 straight away and get these extensions before travelling from now on. I'll even find the RPI and apologise to him personally.

I am not going to lie or try and be clever.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Maybe getting off at Finsbury Pk, rebooking to WGC there and catching a fast train to WGC would be easier. Just a thought!