More and more onerous conditions for Thomas days

[Justin Smith]

I have been more and more frustrated as I read about the more and more onerous conditions that HIT Entertainment put on the Heritage railways that run Thomas and Friends events. As I understand it HIT entertainment are the rights holder to Thomas the Tank Engine since Rev Awdry`s family sold out to them, sold out in more than one sense of the word.....
Some Heritage lines are even pulling out of Thomas events altogether, and even those that aren`t are making less and less out of them.
Rev Awdry was a railway enthusiast and I`m sure he`d want to be helping the railways as much as possible. I can`t help thinking he`s spinning in his grave like a proverbial gyroscope over the whole thing. I wonder whether his family, who sold the rights to HIT, feel any guilt over it ?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

HiT impose unreasonable restrictions upon heritage railways, who then incur costs to run the event. I will not be very much surprised if there are no Thomas events running by the end of this year. There is not even room to run an event without HiT, as they even own the rights to putting a face on an engine.

 

[Justin Smith]

HiT impose unreasonable restrictions upon heritage railways, who then incur costs to run the event. I will not be very much surprised if there are no Thomas events running by the end of this year. There is not even room to run an event without HiT, as they even own the rights to putting a face on an engine.

Quite apart from anything else I think it`s bad business for HIT to discourage Thomas days because the Thomas publicity then helps the Thomas "brand".
It`s a virtuous circle.
The whole thing is so sad. I hope the Rev Awdry`s family read this thread because I`d like to know what they think.

 

[generalvegitable]

I was told that at the nene valley railway (BY one of their staff) that HiT cannot impose the regulations on them due to their Thomas loco actually having been named that by the Rev Awdry himself, and the don't have to pay unless they use a 3d face, whether that is true any more is anyone's guess

 

[Justin Smith]

I was told that at the nene valley railway (BY one of their staff) that HiT cannot impose the regulations on them due to their Thomas loco actually having been named that by the Rev Awdry himself, and the don't have to pay unless they use a 3d face, whether that is true any more is anyone's guess

I hope it is, I`d wet myself laughing !

 

[Oracle]

Eastleigh Lakeside Railway gave up with the restrictions/costs and now have Underground Ernie days instead!

 

[royaloak]

Have also seen an Ivor the engine day somewhere last year.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I would hope you have - MHR run it!

 

[royaloak]

Thay would be the one, thanks Ralph

 

[43021HST]

Have also seen an Ivor the engine day somewhere last year.

What did it pull, I can hardly imagine that little engine pulling 5 MK1s

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Sadly not. Poor Ivor was on brake van duties.

 

[4SRKT]

The East Lancs stick faces on locos on their family days, but don't use names from Thomas the Tank Engine, presumably to avoid giving anything to HIT Entertainment (I'd love to add an S to the front of this, but have been told off for swearing on here before).

Anyway, Thomas events suck, and must be past their sell-by date at this stage. Sad though if they're killed off by a ghastly corporation with no empathy for the stories themselves.

 

[Justin Smith]

Thomas events suck, and must be past their sell-by date at this stage. Sad though if they're killed off by a ghastly corporation with no empathy for the stories themselves.

I don`t particularly like Thomas events myself, I`m a bit old for them....., but I think they introduce many kids to real steam trains and as such are valuable for the long term future of Heritage lines. Also they do, or at least did, bring in much needed revenue. The fact that fewer lines are holding them is unfortunate in so many ways, and as I said, I`m sure the Rev Awdry would be most unhappy about it all.

 

[4SRKT]

I don`t particularly like Thomas events myself, I`m a bit old for them....., but I think they introduce many kids to real steam trains and as such are valuable for the long term future of Heritage lines. Also they do, or at least did, bring in much needed revenue. The fact that fewer lines are holding them is unfortunate in so many ways, and as I said, I`m sure the Rev Awdry would be most unhappy about it all.

I agree about the long term problem for heritage lines of attracting new blood, but it's very annoying to make an unplanned visit to a line and find all the engines Thomased up. At the moment, we are still a significant part of the core market, and some better way of striking the balance (other than the tired and increasingly desparate seeming Thomas cliche) between families and enthusiasts needs to be found.

In fact the third group of principal patrons is probably diesel enthusiasts, who want neither Thomas nor steam. As a proportion of the total these seem to be increasing, as the growing number of diesel events would suggest. For big lines like the ELR this must be godsend. They can run a quality service of three trains, but if they put a diesel on one and a kettle on the others they only have to worry about getting enough families and steam enthusiasts to fill two trains (and let's be honest, how many of us on here can actually remember first hand steam in real service?). The bashers will stick to the diesel all day, with the added advantage that the normals only have to encounter each other and the steam buffs, who are probably more a normal's cup of tea than your average crank!

For smaller, one-engine-in-steam operations this is no solution though. You can't run a diesel (except maybe as a theme day or something) because the families and old-timers don't want it, and the cranks won't come for a steam loco.

 

[FlyingScot]

Grave? You mean he's dead?NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cry:

 

[90019]

Grave? You mean he's dead?

He died almost 13 years ago...

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Mind you, if we are being correct, Thomas is dead as well. According to Awdrys son (in one of his books on preserved lines), the Rev based him upon a type of tank engine (LBSCR) of which none have been preserved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB&SCR_E2_class

Wonder if there would be a legal action if you tried to build a replica.:roll:

 

[4SRKT]

Mind you, if we are being correct, Thomas is dead as well. According to Awdrys son (in one of his books on preserved lines), the Rev based him upon a type of tank engine (LBSCR) of which none have been preserved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB&SCR_E2_class

Wonder if there would be a legal action if you tried to build a replica.:roll:

Is Gordon an A1? If he is, then maybe the Tornado lads should keep an eye out for for HIT's lawyers........

 

[Justin Smith]

Mind you, if we are being correct, Thomas is dead as well. According to Awdrys son (in one of his books on preserved lines), the Rev based him upon a type of tank engine (LBSCR) of which none have been preserved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB&SCR_E2_class

Wonder if there would be a legal action if you tried to build a replica.:roll:

Interesting post, for two reasons.

1 Thomas`s identity

2 If the Rev Awdry`s son is a Heritage Railway enthusiast, why did he sell the rights to the Thomas books to a company which is so lacking in empathy for Heritage Railways ?

 

[royaloak]

£££££​

 

[Dolive22]

As to whether you would get sued if you tried to make an E2, any intellectual property rights in the design would have started out with LBSCR, gone to Southern on grouping, the BTC in 48, the BRB in the 60's, and on privatisation would have ended up with BREL or BRB Residuary Ltd, a company limited by shares all of which are owned by the Secretary of State for Transport as a corporation sole. BREL ended up as part of ABB which became ADtranz following a merger and then was taken over by Bombardier.

IP law isn't my strong point, but any patent rights would have lapsed no later than 1936. Some other rights subsist until 70 years after the death of the natural person who created the work. Lawson Billinton died in November 1954. 70 years on would be 2024.

I can't see the SoS suing you, but Bombardier might. However they would have to prove they owned the rights, and I count at least 8 changes of ownership. I suspect at least one archive couldn't find the papers to prove ownership.

I took this a bit too seriously, but once I started checking I kept going.

 

[LWB]

I'm sure that many people who contribute to this forum will know the financial and contractual requirements of running a 'pucka' (i.e. licensed, approved etc)
Thomas event. When I first heard the money involved, as well as the strict terms under which approval would only be given, I was surprised to say the least.

All due credit to those who made 'Thomas and his Railroad Buddies y'all'a world consumer product. However, I can't help wondering if things have gone too far.

 

[Spagnoletti]

It's true that there are more hoops to jump through and the financial arrangements make it difficult to turn a profit, but the railway I volunteer at runs 2 or 3 Thomas events a year and they are a very well attended and a significant boost to the railway's revenue. If families are willing to spend 30 quid on a day out that is admittedly pretty inauthentic then why turn them away? If you have the financial management expertise to make it an earner why not?
My view is that if 3 weeks of Thomas each year supports me being able to go and tinker with oily, rusty obstinate & obsolete technology every other weekend then amen to that. The 5 year olds who enjoy Thomas now might just be able to stop our stuff being scrapped in 20 years time when we've all got asbestosis or signalmans palsy or whatever.

 

[E&W Lucas]

It seems to me that HIT simply do not want their brand associated with heritage lines. They'd sooner everyone went to that Thomas fairystory at Drayton manner.

Some of their restrictions are simply ludicrous. Anyone working on site on a Thomas day has to have undergone an enhanced level CRB check. That's the same as if you were applying for a job working alone with children, but for the bloke digging out the ashpit!

The railway I volunteer for, has not bothered with Thomas for a couple of years. Last year we enjoyed a record season. Perhaps these events are more crucial for the smaller outfits, where there are fewer opportunities to make money, or those that are away from tourist areas. I suspect that the major lines can live without them.

 

[Dolive22]

Enhanced CRB checks aren't discretionary. If you are eligible to have an Enhanced check run it is mandatory, if it isn't mandatory you are not allowed to have an Enhanced CRB check. If people who are not alone with children are having them done something is wrong. If HIT try and tell you otherwise point out that it can be a crime to obtain CRB checks improperly and it is also a crime to waste police time by making them do intelligence checks for no good reason.

 

[FlyingScot]

Mind you, if we are being correct, Thomas is dead as well. According to Awdrys son (in one of his books on preserved lines), the Rev based him upon a type of tank engine (LBSCR) of which none have been preserved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB&SCR_E2_class

Wonder if there would be a legal action if you tried to build a replica.:roll:

OMG your right!

I tried to make a link but it didn't work so just search up Strasburg 2 shifting Thomas the Tank Engine on youtube.

He shall forever be in our hearts......

 

[DJ_K666]

Have also seen an Ivor the engine day somewhere last year.

Cholsey and Wallingham Railway have an Ivor event, as do one or two Welsh lines

I know that HiT can't charge the Bluebell over Stepney as that loco was around before being featured in the book. And it was named after a place rather than just made up. Didn't stop them trying though.

 

[33208]

Have also seen an Ivor the engine day somewhere last year.

Ivor the Engine event is on at the MHR next weekend through to the following weekend

 

[Mvann]

With reference to faces on locos. Hit never copyrighted the flat face of Thomas. They only did with the 3d face. The only other railway not mentioned who don't pay hit is the talylln. The rev. Awdry was a volunteer there in the early years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ps. Gordon was an A1 but of the unrebuilt flying Scotsman type and not the tornado type. Flying Scotsman was also featured in one of the stories.

 

[E&W Lucas]

With reference to faces on locos. Hit never copyrighted the flat face of Thomas. They only did with the 3d face. The only other railway not mentioned who don't pay hit is the talylln. The rev. Awdry was a volunteer there in the early years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ps. Gordon was an A1 but of the unrebuilt flying Scotsman type and not the tornado type. Flying Scotsman was also featured in one of the stories.

Most of the Thomas locos are real engines. Henry's a Black 5, James is a GWSR 260, Oliver a 14XX, Donald & Douglas CR 060's, Duck 57XX, Boco Cl 28, Diesel 08, Bear Hymek, Bill & Ben are on the Bodmin & Wensford, the NG engines are off the TR, except Duke who's one of the FR's England locos. Even in the "new" stories, there's Emily (Stirling Single), Murdoch (9F), Freddie (VoR), Rosie (Yankie Tank), Spencer (A4)....