390033 City of Glasgow disposal

[Speed43125]

Hello, first thread here, so apologies for newbie mistakes.

I was having a dig in to the class 390s given the new franchise and new talk of possible replacement, and the use of 9 and 11 carriage trains puzzled me. My understanding is that stock was additionally ordered around 2010, forming 4 new sets and lengthening many of the existing sets.

Why weren't the undamaged cars from the rear of 39033 them recovered for use on extending trains, especially given the increasing demand, even just lengthening one or two more sets would sound beneficial to me. Where has the stock been dumped now? has it all been scrapped? if not, could it be recovered/refurbished for additional use extending another set or two? or is there some legal reason it can no longer be used?
Thanks in advance for your answers.

 

[FFFC 57]

691 & 698 reside in the Virgin trains office car park in Crewe and are used for crew training. Many parts were recovered for use on other sets.

 

[Ianno87]

When the accident happened (2007) was when there were only 9 car sets. 11 cars only started appearing from 2012.

So having only one or two odd 11 car sets would've been somewhat odd! Probably wasn't worth storing a few vehicles speculatively.

 

[Green tractor]

I might be wrong but I think each of the carriages (in a 9 car set at least) is unique, so just adding a spare into a set possibly wasn't possible?

 

[hexagon789]

Hello, first thread here, so apologies for newbie mistakes.

I was having a dig in to the class 390s given the new franchise and new talk of possible replacement, and the use of 9 and 11 carriage trains puzzled me. My understanding is that stock was additionally ordered around 2010, forming 4 new sets and lengthening many of the existing sets.

Why weren't the undamaged cars from the rear of 39033 them recovered for use on extending trains, especially given the increasing demand, even just lengthening one or two more sets would sound beneficial to me. Where has the stock been dumped now? has it all been scrapped? if not, could it be recovered/refurbished for additional use extending another set or two? or is there some legal reason it can no longer be used?
Thanks in advance for your answers.

I believe only two cars were recovered from 033.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I believe only two cars were recovered from 033.

The DMS was scrapped IIRC with the rest being split up between Virgin, the MoD & the Fire College.

 

[800002]

Would it not be a similar occurance to a motorcycle crash helmet?
The structural damage sustained - micro cracks and such - would give rise to the possibility of physical failure upon the next occurance, should one occur.
My thoughts being: they can't be put back into service on the rails, but can be utilised elsewhere (as described).

 

[hexagon789]

The DMS was scrapped IIRC with the rest being split up between Virgin, the MoD & the Fire College.

Weren't only two carriages properly salvageable, in the sense of being safe to use again if needed.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Weren't only two carriages properly salvageable, in the sense of being safe to use again if needed.

8 & 9 IIRC but Virgin chose 5 & 9 for whatever reason.

 

[hexagon789]

8 & 9 IIRC but Virgin chose 5 & 9 for whatever reason.

Ah okay, just assumed they were the two rearmost vehicle.

 

[800002]

691 & 698 reside in the Virgin trains office car park in Crewe

8 & 9 IIRC but Virgin chose 5 & 9 for whatever reason.

Ah okay, just assumed they were the two rearmost vehicle.

According to the RAIB report (R20/2008 v5 July 2011) the vehicles identified by FFFC 57 (691 and 698) were vehicles 9 and 3, respectively (in direction of travel).

 

[hexagon789]

According to the RAIB report (R20/2008 v5 July 2011) the vehicles identified by FFFC 57 (691 and 698) were vehicles 9 and 3, respectively (in direction of travel).

View attachment 68002

So the DMRF and the PTSRMB, not exactly going to lengthen much with that I have to say.

 

[800002]

So the DMRF and the PTSRMB, not exactly going to lengthen much with that I have to say.

I don't think that was the objective in choosing those two coaches.
Has there been a previous example of severly de-railed passenger vehicles being returned to revenue earning service? Even a driving power car?

I appreciate the cl. 390 were in a class of thier own, back then, crashworthyness wise, but even so.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think that was the objective in choosing those two coaches.
Has there been a previous example of severly de-railed passenger vehicles being returned to revenue earning service? Even a driving power car?

I appreciate the cl. 390 were in a class of thier own, back then, crashworthyness wise, but even so.

Some of the Mk3s in Polmont went back into service, ditto Colwich.

Leading vehicles, there have been a couple of HST power cars that were repaired after accidents I'm sure, though I think they got new cabs.

 

[800002]

Some of the Mk3s in Polmont went back into service, ditto Colwich.

Leading vehicles, there have been a couple of HST power cars that were repaired after accidents I'm sure, though I think they got new cabs.

I must say I'm suprised at that.
I'm sure though it depends on how badly each unit is damaged.
I know three leading power cars (Cl. 43 HST's) were written off, but I never considered the trailing ones.

 

[hexagon789]

I must say I'm suprised at that.
I'm sure though it depends on how badly each unit is damaged.
I know three leading power cars (Cl. 43 HST's) were written off, but I never considered the trailing ones.

I'm now starting to doubt myself, so I'll double check that.

 

[aleggatta]

Has there been a previous example of severly de-railed passenger vehicles being returned to revenue earning service? Even a driving power car?

I guess it depends on your definition of severely de-railed. Wasn't there a 442 that significantly overran somewhere soon after introduction that ran down an embankment, stayed upright but certainly seemed like a difficult recovery was required

 

[800002]

I guess it depends on your definition of severely de-railed. Wasn't there a 442 that significantly overran somewhere soon after introduction that ran down an embankment, stayed upright but certainly seemed like a difficult recovery was required

I guess, what I meant was, off-the-ironwork, rolled down embankment.
I would expect fire damaged vehiles to be written off automatically.
The sounding out of the other vehiles however, I don't know.
As for your example, I'm affriad I honestly don't know.
Wikipedia leeds to a webpage giving the following:

3 September 1989 - Wessex Electrics Class 442 EMU No 2407 runs away driver-less for ½m from Bournemouth depot, overrunning the buffers with the leading vehicles coming to rest in adjacent Wharfedale Road - fortunately without harm to anyone.

Source here (nsers.co.uk) No pictures though.

I'm now starting to doubt myself, so I'll double check that.

Sorry, hate it when I do that. I'll have a scout around over the weekend!

 

[43096]

I'm now starting to doubt myself, so I'll double check that.

The only production HST power cars written off in accidents (43011/019/173/195) have all been leading trains when damaged.

 

[Terry Tait]

I remember the 365 that crashed at Potters Bar, the leading three coaches appeared undamaged so I was surprised to see them disposed off.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Some of the Mk3s in Polmont went back into service, ditto Colwich.

Leading vehicles, there have been a couple of HST power cars that were repaired after accidents I'm sure, though I think they got new cabs.

The Mk3 set involved in Southall wound up in Ladbrook Grove 2 years later.
But both sets were London bound so most of the standard carriages survived.

 

[800002]

Found this post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ladbroke-grove-accident-driver-hst-set.123661/#post-2375789

Ladbroke Grove accident 5/10/99

HST Formation:
43011+41042(A)+41060(B)+40213(C)+42082(D)+42074(E)+42073(F)+42361(G)+44024(H)+43018

(Class 165 No. 165115 formation – 58967+55429+58930)


Southall accident 19/9/97

HST Formation: 43173+41049+41050+40745+42072+42073+42074+44024+43163

I don't think though the vehiles from Southall, subsequently involved in Ladbroke Grove crashes were damaged (in Southall) 42072 the only derailed, but remaining upright. . I'm not 100% certain though.
The trailing power cars - I can't comment on yet as to damage sustained.

*Bolded the overlapping vehicles.

 

[800002]

The only production HST power cars written off in accidents (43011/019/173/195) have all been leading trains when damaged.

Was 195 really written off after its tree hitting incident at Hemerdon?

Thanks for confirming this info. I've only just seen it after posting my latest post.

 

[43096]

Was 195 really written off after its tree hitting incident at Hemerdon?

Written off by leasing company and sold for spares recovery to GWR.

 

[bramling]

I remember the 365 that crashed at Potters Bar, the leading three coaches appeared undamaged so I was surprised to see them disposed off.

Unless I’ve missed something I believe two of the three vehicles remain stored. I wonder if they’re like a time capsule inside.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Unless I’ve missed something I believe two of the three vehicles remain stored. I wonder if they’re like a time capsule inside.

I'm guessing they would've been cleared of personal effects and probably not much else.

 

[800002]

Written off by leasing company and sold for spares recovery to GWR.

Oh, okay. Written off but not scrapped. Understand now. Cheers.

 

[800002]

Has there been a previous example of severly de-railed passenger vehicles being returned to revenue earning service? Even a driving power car?

So returning to my original question, and regarding the MK-III vehicles involved at Southall and Ladbroke Grove.
42074 - remained on the rails in both incidents. Became part of LA08, as published in Sept 07.
42073 - derailed, remaining upright at Southall. Remained on the rails at Ladbroke Grove. Became part of LA13*
42361 - remained on the rails ar Ladbroke Grove. Became part of LA05*
44024 - Remained on the rails in both incidents. Went offlease in March 18 as part of LA10.

Trailing Powercars 43163 (Southall) and 43018 (Ladbroke Grove) didn't leave the tracks / were undamaged.

In the 1991 Ufton Nervet incident, all vehicles left the tracks, including the trailing Powercar 43029.
I can't find any reference to if the whole of the MK-III stock was written off or not.
43029 was repaired and returned to service though.

1991 Ufton Nervet Rail Crash.
43019+41013(H)+41014(G)+40206(F)+42018(E)+42022(D)+42017(B2)+42020(B1)+44006(A)+43029

*As published in Railway Herald, Sept 2007. Issue 101.

 

[43096]

So returning to my original question, and regarding the MK-III vehicles involved at Southall and Ladbroke Grove.
42074 - remained on the rails in both incidents. Became part of LA08, as published in Sept 07.
42073 - derailed, remaining upright at Southall. Remained on the rails at Ladbroke Grove. Became part of LA13*
42361 - remained on the rails ar Ladbroke Grove. Became part of LA05*
44024 - Remained on the rails in both incidents. Went offlease in March 18 as part of LA10.

Trailing Powercars 43163 (Southall) and 43018 (Ladbroke Grove) didn't leave the tracks / were undamaged.

In the 1991 Ufton Nervet incident, all vehicles left the tracks, including the trailing Powercar 43029.
I can't find any reference to if the whole of the MK-III stock was written off or not.
43029 was repaired and returned to service though.


*As published in Railway Herald, Sept 2007. Issue 101.

All the Mark 3s involved at Ufton Nervet were scrapped. The only vehicle to return after that accident was 43029, and that was “on decision” for a while afterwards.

 

[800002]

All the Mark 3s involved at Ufton Nervet were scrapped. The only vehicle to return after that accident was 43029, and that was “on decision” for a while afterwards.

Thanks. That saved me some searching.